Team McLaren doesn't know the rules!

[RedMaple]

When I saw the Hamilton's pass on Vettel, I immediately thought he should give back his position. I can't believe Hamilton thought it was legal.

If there was no tarmac there but a concrete barrier do you think Hamilton would have made that pass without hitting the wall?

Clearly when Hamilton is in catch up mode he does not think too clearly.

[mep]

We weren't aware that the incident was questionable until a number of laps later when it was displayed on our monitors that Car 22 was under investigation

That's one answer where I start to doubt if there is anything going on in there minds.
Immediately after the maneuver started everywhere the discussions if this was legal or not.
But the guys at McLaren didn't even expect that this was questionable.
Ron you have a big button in front of you where FIA is written on,
touch this button and you will immediately know if your team made a mistake,
and you can correct it.
This is one of the typical stupid excuses of McLaren.

[dumrick]

Drivers are being increasingly treated as school kids. Nevermind the accident itself, I would like to know who empowers the stewards to understand if he missed the apex in the second S for going too fast into the first corner, to avoid Vettel from colliding with him or because he got his foot tangled behind the throttle...

I've been watching F1 for more than 25 years and now it feels it's ruled by the Gestapo.

What was your opinion when Schumacher parked ar Raskasse? Could you tell for sure he deliberately parked his car to avoid others finishing their laps? In sports presumption of innocense works backwards.

Since you mention Schumacher, I guess that's the keyword: the F1 I watched when I was a kid was driven by gentlemen, then lunatics like Michael and Ayrton that thought they were entitled to do anything/anywhere motivated this "need" for wrist slapping.

Maybe F1's should still kill and respect amongs drivers would be enforced naturally...

[Ciro Pabón]

Since you mention Schumacher, I guess that's the keyword: the F1 I watched when I was a kid was driven by gentlemen, then lunatics like Michael and Ayrton that thought they were entitled to do anything/anywhere motivated this "need" for wrist slapping.

Ahhh, Schumacher. Long time no see. I was waiting for his appearance since the first post.

There you have another guy that, according to himself, never made mistakes... unlike Senna, who was naturally crazy, without having to lie about himself. Hamilton is falling quickly, in my eyes, into the slot of "another perfect guy".

Or so the legend goes, to be honest: probably they weren't/aren't as proud (or as nuts, in Senna's case) as the Internet and biographies make you believe.

I predict this thread will get a little nastier... it's becoming a "character judgement" thread. Who doesn't love to judge fellow drivers? Just don't throw things at each other's heads, throw them to the drivers. Let's make them earn their money!

[DaveKillens]

I consider this whole episode as a result of two factors. Firstly, Hamilton is still relatively new to F1, and additionally, his aggression sometimes goes to far. The kid still has a lot of learning to do. Secondly, the manner in which the FIA runs the race is something to be ashamed of. I watch various forms of racing, and in the now passe Champ Cars, the race steward was up to date, and reacted immediately to issues. If a car overtook by taking a shorter line through a chicane, the race director would immediately contact the team and instruct them to order the driver to give back what he had taken. Simple, fast, and much more efficient that the three ring circus of the FIA. Why do stewards have to take so long? Are they on a coffe break? Taking a nap, or changing their colostomy bags?
Geesh, I don't know but driver mistakes get amplified by their mistakes and methods.

[checkered]

I consider this whole episode as a result of two factors. Firstly, Hamilton is still relatively new to F1, and additionally, his aggression sometimes goes to far. The kid still has a lot of learning to do. Secondly, the manner in which the FIA runs the race is something to be ashamed of. I watch various forms of racing, and in the now passe Champ Cars, the race steward was up to date, and reacted immediately to issues. If a car overtook by taking a shorter line through a chicane, the race director would immediately contact the team and instruct them to order the driver to give back what he had taken. Simple, fast, and much more efficient that the three ring circus of the FIA. Why do stewards have to take so long? Are they on a coffe break? Taking a nap, or changing their colostomy bags?
Geesh, I don't know but driver mistakes get amplified by their mistakes and methods.

Dave, you just took

the discussion in a very interesting direction. First to address the stewards' management of the race; there's certainly a history of belated decisions in F1. No regulatory measure should be changed in nature due to the length of stewards' deliberation process alone. Whether the FIA has published the reasoning behind Hamilton's drive-through, I haven't bothered to look. Clearly there was prolonged contact about the situation between Dennis and the stewards: Hence I'm left wondering whether it wasn't the length of McLaren's challenging of the stewards' view rather than the offence itself that ultimately required a sanction instead of just Lewis conceding a place? McLaren's management appears to retain serious misgivings about FIA's motivations and this can cloud judgement in snap-call situations - though they did correctly anticipate and compensate for Heikki's grid penalty in rather pressing circumstances as well. A slight indication of differences in driver management, perhaps.

And secondly, Lewis, Lewis, Lewis ... this is a very interesting time in the science of developing (as) a driver. There's a marked difference even between such recent, still present even, generations such as Schumacher's and the "current" one. Nurturing skills and capabilities is intensive, comprehensive and both by chance and design Hamilton most perfectly embodies this latest trend. Still, there are no free lunches and this "more of everything" approach doesn't come out of nothing. Clearly Lewis is right up there in talent or he wouldn't have lived up to expectations. My exception to this is that in being able to do this, continually live up to expectations, one risks a perception of self-worth that is based on an ability to reconcile any externally given contradictions within. This is my experience anyway. And in not having had to make real choices between truly irreconcilable options by one's own virtue of talent, the learning process in acquiring experience of determining such mutually exclusive choises is delayed. I'm afraid there are no shortcuts to the art of making the most out of one's own failures and wonder whether such individuals aren't more hampered by their winning capabilities rather than losing abilities?

An outside-the-racing World example would be the "incident" of Hamilton being lowered onto a re-enactment of the battle of Troy in McLaren race gear. It was blamed on his management, but Lewis himself commented that he had just tried to get into an acting mindset never mind his doubts. In effect, even if every facet of the proposition surely screamed "abject, disastrous ridicule and humiliation" to an intelligent person such as he undoubtedly is, he was more prone to appease expectations of success than to put his foot down and call it like it was. All this is pure speculation of course, but an inability to back down from impossible situations under external pressure undoubtedly would put a driver and his team at a disadvantage. Such a thing, I imagine, can hamper communication especially - between a driver and his team and between a driver and his co-competitors as well.

[JiMbO]

Lets not forget that these guys are supposed to be the best drivers in the world. So making silly mistakes should not be acceptable. Perhaps the FIA should bring in a penalty point system for new drivers and if they make too many mistakes in their first two years they will have there superlicences revoked....

Hamilton is still relatively new to F1, and additionally, his aggression sometimes goes to far. The kid still has a lot of learning to do.

perhaps the top tier of motorsports should not be a place for learning from stupid mistakes i thought that was what formula renault etc was for?? if hamilton still has a lot to learn maybe he should go back to gp2 for another year of two

[guy_smiley]

Hamilton=going about Formula One the wrong way

Kubica=going about Formula One the right way

Kubica doesn't make childish errors, he doesn't invite P. Diddy to be in the garage and spray champagne on him at the podium celebrations, he doesn't swing from wires, he doesn't hit out at the media, he doesn't party with A-list celebrities. Kubica is 100% focused on F1 100% of the time. That is not the case with Lewis...

I love that Kubica and Hamilton have long been contemporaries because the comparisons between them are that much more valid.

[smusi]

As eidetic wisely said: This is a General Chat Forum!

[kekekeke]

Hamilton=going about Formula One the wrong way

Kubica=going about Formula One the right way

Kubica doesn't make childish errors, he doesn't invite P. Diddy to be in the garage and spray champagne on him at the podium celebrations, he doesn't swing from wires, he doesn't hit out at the media, he doesn't party with A-list celebrities. Kubica is 100% focused on F1 100% of the time. That is not the case with Lewis...

I love that Kubica and Hamilton have long been contemporaries because the comparisons between them are that much more valid.

Are you from Poland by any chance?

The only reason we don't hear about Kubica is that he's not realistically in contention for a WDC. Once he starts winning regularly the media will be all over him and the dirt will slowly come out.

Already Kubica has started complaining about the team and how they're not giving 100%. He's not happy with the car etc. Opening his mouth too much. That's really arrogant of him. In fact it looks like Kubica is worse than Hamilton. Just wait till the media gets hold of him.

[guy_smiley]

I'm from the States I was waiting for someone to bring this 'complaining' up (I thought it would be WhiteBlue ) because I hardly see it as that. A driver saying something to the effect of 'the team needs to work hard if we want to win' is hardly complaining. All the drivers say that now that I think about it. You don't see lazy teams and lazy drivers winning. And just because they achieved their goal for this season--a win--doesn't mean that now they're going to sit back and let the rest of the year sail away. I think he has the right attitude and mentality about it.

Plus Peter Sauber agrees with me

[kekekeke]

And just because they achieved their goal for this season--a win--doesn't mean that now they're going to sit back and let the rest of the year sail away.

But yet when Kubica said that the team must back all the effort behind him, he's implying that BMW are going to sit back and let the rest of the year sail away exactly like you said. That's very arrogant and a huge insult to the team who have spent a lot of effort getting the car up to where it is now. There is a difference between saying that "we need to work hard" and constantly whining about how the team is not doing everything they can and how the team is not listening to him.

[WhiteBlue]

And just because they achieved their goal for this season--a win--doesn't mean that now they're going to sit back and let the rest of the year sail away.

But yet when Kubica said that the team must back all the effort behind him, he's implying that BMW are going to sit back and let the rest of the year sail away exactly like you said. That's very arrogant and a huge insult to the team who have spent a lot of effort getting the car up to where it is now. There is a difference between saying that "we need to work hard" and constantly whining about how the team is not doing everything they can and how the team is not listening to him.

I think that Kubica is in fact asking to share the resources with more bias towards this year than the next year. BMW are a bit more strained than McLaren or Ferrari. They do not have two completely separate development teams as the bigger teams have.

Theissen is a pretty good manager. He knows he will achieve this years target and he will be tempted to focus a bit more on 2009 when he wants to fight for the championship. There is also the problem of the huge techical changes. They say it is only comparable to the introduction of the V8.

With this years car Kubica only got this far because it is supremely reliable and he makes no mistakes. But the ultimate speed is not there. Whatever they publicly say the bulk of the manpower will already be on next years car. Kubica of course cannot think that way. He must be 100% focused on the next race. It is a devil of a problem and I think Kubica is quite reasonable in the way he talks about it.

[kekekeke]

And just because they achieved their goal for this season--a win--doesn't mean that now they're going to sit back and let the rest of the year sail away.

But yet when Kubica said that the team must back all the effort behind him, he's implying that BMW are going to sit back and let the rest of the year sail away exactly like you said. That's very arrogant and a huge insult to the team who have spent a lot of effort getting the car up to where it is now. There is a difference between saying that "we need to work hard" and constantly whining about how the team is not doing everything they can and how the team is not listening to him.

I think that Kubica is in fact asking to share the resources with more bias towards this year than the next year. BMW are a bit more strained than McLaren or Ferrari. They do not have two completely separate development teams as the bigger teams have.

BMW is as big a team as one can get. They have all the infrastructure in place and have one of the most powerful supercomputers at their disposal for CFD. They're definitely not strained. For Kubica to claim that the team is slacking off is hugely arrogant.

[guy_smiley]

With this years car Kubica only got this far because...he makes no mistakes.

And Hamilton does.


I'm sorry keke but I just don't see where you're getting all this 'constantly whining' and 'hugely arrogant' stuff from. If Kubica is arrogant, then what does that make Hamilton?

I guess there's no point arguing this--we're just going to have to agree to disagree about the arrogance, but the mistakes and the swinging from wires and the partying with celebs are all cold hard fact.