General Honda F1 Topic

[GhostF1]

most of it is down to chassis. the toro rosso chassis is not even close mercedes neither it is efficient. a good example wll be williams? thats right williams mercedes even slower than toro rosso.

Force india had nearly identical speed on the straight as mercedes (1-2 kph down).

The funny thing is gasly with old aero and old spec had a better top speed than his qualy time in friday practice i believe it was 320kph in the straight and much faster than hartly who was running the new aero with new spec2. goes to show something is not right with the new aero expecially the new front wing. they need to test both specs properly without just putting it in the car and thinking it will go faster.

You can't compare quali to FP. There's a high chance a car would get some kind of slipstream at some point durring practice, but not during qualifying.

Force India is always high on the top speed charts. A lot of the time higher than Merc. Their chassis principles have always favoured relentless speed on straights. This is a known thing. But regardless, top speed, although easy to say is the measure of the power unit, having direct drag races is a little more telling, and even then only a little.

[GhostF1]

Engine performance vs mercedes. As you can see Honda is still quite some way off merc's 2.1 PU. 10 kph difference at the line at sub 300 kph speeds would mean at least 40 bhp deficit.

https://youtu.be/gOn_Sz35n7I

It's ain interesting watch actually.

Starting the lap, then turns 1, 2 and 3.. all have long straights leading up to them. Start line, Turn 1 and 2 the STR is down 9kph in all of them, turn 3 that's lessened to only 6kph, then skipping through the middle sector, we have the second last corner that has a bit of a straight leading up to it, the speed difference has lessened again to 5kph, and then crossing the finish line, also about 5kph.
Obviously there's also a bit of driver involvement, chassis aero and energy management strategy etc that contributes to those measurements but, the second half of the lap the Honda is not worlds apart at all, the deficit average is 5kph.
What is a mystery and will always be a mystery is how each team setup the deployment strat at each circuit. But based on that video, the Honda seems to be on a good path for quali comparison to a Merc.

Having RBR next year will really shine the light.

[Singabule]

Engine performance vs mercedes. As you can see Honda is still quite some way off merc's 2.1 PU. 10 kph difference at the line at sub 300 kph speeds would mean at least 40 bhp deficit.

https://youtu.be/gOn_Sz35n7I

It's ain interesting watch actually.

Starting the lap, then turns 1, 2 and 3.. all have long straights leading up to them. Start line, Turn 1 and 2 the STR is down 9kph in all of them, turn 3 that's lessened to only 6kph, then skipping through the middle sector, we have the second last corner that has a bit of a straight leading up to it, the speed difference has lessened again to 5kph, and then crossing the finish line, also about 5kph.
Obviously there's also a bit of driver involvement, chassis aero and energy management strategy etc that contributes to those measurements but, the second half of the lap the Honda is not worlds apart at all, the deficit average is 5kph.
What is a mystery and will always be a mystery is how each team setup the deployment strat at each circuit. But based on that video, the Honda seems to be on a good path for quali comparison to a Merc.

Having RBR next year will really shine the light.

If you put cosworth engine on back of RB, that engine also shine. Looking forward to next year so bad.

[rogazilla]

Force india had nearly identical speed on the straight as mercedes (1-2 kph down).

You can't compare quali to FP. There's a high chance a car would get some kind of slipstream at some point durring practice, but not during qualifying.

Ok stop this hypothetical gibberish. Why not take Mclaren as an example, so the renault engine is now 60 hp less? Top speed means nothing, lets compare the lap times cause thats what it is all about. Toro Rosso did similar lap times to Force India so where do you think they have the edge cause it aint the compromised chassis which was way behind FI last year.

Def agree with this. There is so many variable and deduce to top speed for HP comparison is not apple to apple. Neither is lap time, but with lap time we can look at similar lap time from 2 teams and have a better understanding of where the car is (chasis and pu). In term of FI and TR here, we know Honda is down from Merc, then we can say TR made it up in chassis... now if we only know how much is made up by chassis then we would know the difference in PU

[amho]

Engine performance vs mercedes. As you can see Honda is still quite some way off merc's 2.1 PU. 10 kph difference at the line at sub 300 kph speeds would mean at least 40 bhp deficit.

https://youtu.be/gOn_Sz35n7I

We don't know drag levels or E-deployment strategy during lap to judge decisively about power gap between cars, but I checked the video footage and calculated transmission ratio based on about 30 samples of speed and engine rev and it seems that Torro rosso have lower transmission ratio in 4th, 5th,6th,7th and 8th gear (i didn't check other gears) in comparison to Mercedes,so it explain part of STR's speed deficit compared to Mercedes. It has been a question that why Mclaren Honda also was running lower gear ratio despite of power deficit to it's competitors.

[Juzh]

Engine performance vs mercedes. As you can see Honda is still quite some way off merc's 2.1 PU. 10 kph difference at the line at sub 300 kph speeds would mean at least 40 bhp deficit.

https://youtu.be/gOn_Sz35n7I

We don't know drag levels or E-deployment

Except we do. Under 300 kph drag is of little (less) importance with the power of current V6 turbo (especially under DRS). We can also assume with high certainty that on the start/finish straight every single engine is on max energy deployment. With the speeds that I mentioned, which are below 300, that's not even debatable.

[Big Tea]

Engine performance vs mercedes. As you can see Honda is still quite some way off merc's 2.1 PU. 10 kph difference at the line at sub 300 kph speeds would mean at least 40 bhp deficit.

https://youtu.be/gOn_Sz35n7I

We don't know drag levels or E-deployment strategy during lap to judge decisively about power gap between cars, but I checked the video footage and calculated transmission ratio based on about 30 samples of speed and engine rev and it seems that Torro rosso have lower transmission ratio in 4th, 5th,6th,7th and 8th gear (i didn't check other gears) in comparison to Mercedes,so it explain part of STR's speed deficit compared to Mercedes. It has been a question that why Mclaren Honda also was running lower gear ratio despite of power deficit to it's competitors.

Are they hitting the rev limiter in top? if not, the lower ratio would not give them reduced speed (would it?)
With longer gearing they would be slower as the power unit would still not get them to a higher speed but would also not accelerate then as quickly. (or am I wrong here?)

[MMMMMMMM]

You're basically right. There's no hiding for the lack of power. Longer gears would only hinder them further.

[amho]

Engine performance vs mercedes. As you can see Honda is still quite some way off merc's 2.1 PU. 10 kph difference at the line at sub 300 kph speeds would mean at least 40 bhp deficit.

https://youtu.be/gOn_Sz35n7I

We don't know drag levels or E-deployment strategy during lap to judge decisively about power gap between cars, but I checked the video footage and calculated transmission ratio based on about 30 samples of speed and engine rev and it seems that Torro rosso have lower transmission ratio in 4th, 5th,6th,7th and 8th gear (i didn't check other gears) in comparison to Mercedes,so it explain part of STR's speed deficit compared to Mercedes. It has been a question that why Mclaren Honda also was running lower gear ratio despite of power deficit to it's competitors.

Are they hitting the rev limiter in top? if not, the lower ratio would not give them reduced speed (would it?)
With longer gearing they would be slower as the power unit would still not get them to a higher speed but would also not accelerate then as quickly. (or am I wrong here?)

They don't hit rev limiter, low gear ratio means less torque at wheel so slower acceleration, so it takes more time to reach a certain speed. For exampke imagin you drive a car and going uphill, with 2nd gear you reach near rev limit and speed of 80 kph, but if you go that uphill with 4th gear, car doesn't have enough torque at wheel so a lot slower acceleration and car speed doesn't exceed 60 kph...

[loner]

Honda inferior to Mercedes is common knowledge.

[Bill]

Ferrari is now the best pu , Mercedes has nothing special since oil burning has been burned,they are not trying hard to retain the mguh for 2021 since they no longer have an advantage.honda is the only manufacturer advocating hard to keep it

[etusch]

Mercedes Pu is still best pu but car is not and their PU can not hide weakness of chassis any more

[Bill]

Cmon they is an interview in both both wolf ,Lewis even Horner acknowledged that they merc no longer have the benchmark pu , even Andy cowled agree to this in a press conference where they had all the engine tech heads. Even of speed trap Ferrari cars are always on top, although it may not be the best reliable indicator

[lio007]

Ferrari is now the best pu , Mercedes has nothing special since oil burning has been burned,they are not trying hard to retain the mguh for 2021 since they no longer have an advantage.honda is the only manufacturer advocating hard to keep it

Todays AMuS report says pretty much the opposite! Merc+Ferr+ Ren pushing to obtain the MGUH

[HPD]

Ferrari is now the best pu , Mercedes has nothing special since oil burning has been burned,they are not trying hard to retain the mguh for 2021 since they no longer have an advantage.honda is the only manufacturer advocating hard to keep it

Todays AMuS report says pretty much the opposite! Merc+Ferr+ Ren pushing to obtain the MGUH

It is public knowledge that Honda did not want to withdraw the MGUH. Now the rest join the same thought as Honda.
You can search for interviews, you will find a lot of information about Honda position with the MUGH