Why is Renault still so bad with Alonso?

[kekekeke]

For the whole of 2007 we had to listen to Alonso fans saying how Alonso was single handedly responsible for making McLaren competitive due to his setup and car development skills. Now that Alonso has moved back to Renault, why is the car still so poor? Renault has moved backwards compared to last year. With the car development expert leading the team, I would have thought Renault would be back in contention right from the first race like McLaren in 2007.

[freedom_honda]

obviously he is struggling to find his .6s

[zac510]

Have you forgotten how bad the car was last year? They've moved back up already IMO.

[kekekeke]

Have you forgotten how bad the car was last year? They've moved back up already IMO.

Yes, the car was so bad they managed to come third in the WCC. Just compare the number of points scored last season and this season. Now with Alonso setting up the car, they're behind Williams, Toyota, RBR. More like they've moved back down.

[roost89]

Have you forgotten how bad the car was last year? They've moved back up already IMO.

Yes, the car was so bad they managed to come third in the WCC. Just compare the number of points scored last season and this season. Now with Alonso setting up the car, they're behind Williams, Toyota, RBR. More like they've moved back down.

or William, Toyota and RBR have stepped up and beaten them but you have to take note that Nelson Piquet hasn't exactly done much in the way of scoring points. He's got 2 of them compared to Alonsos 10.

[Shaddock]

Have you forgotten how bad the car was last year? They've moved back up already IMO.

Yes, the car was so bad they managed to come third in the WCC. Just compare the number of points scored last season and this season. Now with Alonso setting up the car, they're behind Williams, Toyota, RBR. More like they've moved back down.

or William, Toyota and RBR have stepped up and beaten them but you have to take note that Nelson Piquet hasn't exactly done much in the way of scoring points. He's got 2 of them compared to Alonsos 10.

Maybe he need's to come clean and own up that he didn't bring 0.6s to McLaren, but then again he does cheat... http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LN1vhDId4xc

[gcdugas]

Yes, the car was so bad they managed to come third in the WCC. Just compare the number of points scored last season and this season. Now with Alonso setting up the car, they're behind Williams, Toyota, RBR. More like they've moved back down.

Third in the WCC? Only if you disallow McLaren... sure you can do that on a technicality but their wins and podiums still stand and are thus unoccupied by other teams.

Renault 2007 had just one podium. 2008 is much tougher because BMW's podiums (6 in 8 races compared to last year's 2 in 17 races) make it tougher for the mid-field teams to finish in the big points. And Red Bull is finishing races because of better drive train reliability. I would say that the 2008 Renault is certainly better than their 2007 car even though last year they had 28 points after 8 races compared to this year's 12. This year they are almost a single driver team as NP has 2 points compared to last year when HK had 12pts. and GF had 16pts. after 8 races. Even with FA, the task is tougher.

The Williams is also a better car than the 2007 car and they are more of a two driver team than 2007 also.

Red Bull has built a better car around the same engine and that must be tough to swallow for Flav, Bell, Ghosen and the corporate hacks. Presently Toyota has not been shown up by their customer team but it is close. I am no FA fan but he is lifting the results some.

I hate the std. ECU rule. It is antithetical to everything F1 stands for. An engine design philosophy is closely mated to the ECU. If you have a peaky powerful engine with great TC, then you can be competitive. If you have a tractable engine with less power and a std. ECU it could conceivably beat the former. So you have a frozen engine being hamstrung by an ECU that was built around a different philosophy. We all know Renault had the best TC so this handicaps them the most. Still, Red Bull are beating them squarely.

FYI...... I have found this site has the best formatting for results at a glance. 2007 results here.

[gcdugas]

Maybe he need's to come clean and own up that he didn't bring 0.6s to McLaren, but then again he does cheat... http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LN1vhDId4xc

FA faked the foul but Schumi had no hesitation reaping the ill gotten benefit and patted FA on the head after the penalty kick as teammates. So Schumi cheated too.

[checkered]

Now that Alonso has moved back to Renault, why is the car still so poor?

I think Renault's performances

haven't been entirely reflective of their overall technical form. Piquet has had his troubles and is only now beginning to show results for the faith invested in him. Fernando seemed to welcome the challenge initially, driving on the ragged edge and actually reaping the benefits from it. But lately, especially in the last three races, Alonso has seemed unable to recognise the value of guarding his position and basically making it look like he has thrown away big points (podiums even) in continuing to push like he didn't care for the realities on track.

This is not characteristic of his customary racecraft, certainly in stark contrast with his championship seasons. Ross Brawn (in a Motorsport Aktuell interview) recently uttered what is basically an open secret: Fernando wants to go to Ferrari first, Kimi's alledged retirement permitting - and other teams will have to contend with waiting it out. Should such an opening in Maranello not materialise, teams like Honda will move in to lure Alonso for the next season already with some very lucrative packages. Perhaps this reality somehow makes Alonso shoot for a handful of great results instead of a steady string of decent ones. Or treat his current ride more as an academic pursuit, I don't know.

There's also the matter of Renault's terms of exercising their option for him for 2009, but this aspect of the story remains pretty well shrouded. Performance clauses have been suggested by various media, but never based on solid information. In any case I find it unlikely that Renault would hang on to Alonso tooth and nail if he really wanted to go anyway. Whatever the cause for the generally lackluster returns in points, the team will do its utmost to stay on his good side. The conditions at Silverstone seem challenging, let's see what Renault and Fernando can make of it.

[majicmeow]

Also keep in mind that the R28 was being built and designed WAY before Alonso re-signed with Renault.

Any driver input that was put into the R28 before launch would have come from Fisico and Heikki based on their experiences with the R27.

Alonso can only work with what he is given. I think he's done a tremendous job fine-tuning the new car, given how big of a POS it actually is.

I have no doubt he brought some speed to the Mercs,... whether or not it was really 0.6sec is debatable.

[kenshaaka]

Also keep in mind that the R28 was being built and designed WAY before Alonso re-signed with Renault.

Any driver input that was put into the R28 before launch would have come from Fisico and Heikki based on their experiences with the R27.

Alonso can only work with what he is given. I think he's done a tremendous job fine-tuning the new car, given how big of a POS it actually is.

I have no doubt he brought some speed to the Mercs,... whether or not it was really 0.6sec is debatable.

IMO. Just like you say R28 was designed before he re-joined, the Merc of 07 was also designed before he joined. That merc was quick all though the winter testing and it was quick out of the box. I think this whole driver technical prowess is blown way out of the propotion most of the time. If a car is bad its bad fullstop, remember even the great dream team at Ferrari failed to improve the 05 car. For a driver to move to a new car and new tyres and bring 0.6 would be nothing short of witchcraft.

Still on the subject of Driver Technical knowledge, I think Alex wurz is among the best four but look where it has got him.

[flynfrog]

Also keep in mind that the R28 was being built and designed WAY before Alonso re-signed with Renault.

Any driver input that was put into the R28 before launch would have come from Fisico and Heikki based on their experiences with the R27.

Alonso can only work with what he is given. I think he's done a tremendous job fine-tuning the new car, given how big of a POS it actually is.

I have no doubt he brought some speed to the Mercs,... whether or not it was really 0.6sec is debatable.

IMO. Just like you say R28 was designed before he re-joined, the Merc of 07 was also designed before he joined. That merc was quick all though the winter testing and it was quick out of the box. I think this whole driver technical prowess is blown way out of the propotion most of the time. If a car is bad its bad fullstop, remember even the great dream team at Ferrari failed to improve the 05 car. For a driver to move to a new car and new tyres and bring 0.6 would be nothing short of witchcraft.

Still on the subject of Driver Technical knowledge, I think Alex wurz is among the best four but look where it has got him.

if she floats shes a witch if she sinks she wasnt

[Spencifer_Murphy]

I wonder how bad that renault is when you remove the 6-tenths that Alonso brings to them? I said all along that the MP4-22 was a good car, that had been designed before he came, and he had no input (except mid-season deveolpment of course) into its pace.

Not meaning to rock-the-boat you understand, this is not an anti-alonso or pro-mclaren post, I'm just saying that back then Alonso brings them 6-tenths, NOW its all designed before he came, its not down to him. I agree with the latter, always have, the Renault R28 was designed before Alonso could have any impact on it. One also has to remember that it has come on this season, Alonso is a great driver, and has the experience to develop a car, he's proven that.

But (and this is why I menationed Mclaren at the beginning of this post) Mclaren are the PEREFECT example of how a slick, experienced team with great personel and great drivers AND great test drivers can get it wrong sometimes and make crappy cars. Think about it, the MP4-18 was still-born, The MP4-19A slow, The MP4-19B still slow(ish), the MP4-20 not much better, the MP4-21 was getting there... once you loose ground its a long way back. Just ask Honda, who'd have thought after 2004 they'd be in this mess?

It maybe a case that once you go barking up the wrong tree in a development area, its hard to gain ground and fully deveolp an anternative route whilst still maintaining pace with the others in all other aspects of your car's design. renault are a great team, with great people, (2 WDC & WCC with a spend only 1/3 of Ferrari & Mclaren proves this), and In Fernando they have a World Class driver who can help steer then down the correct deveolpment paths (or steer them away from the wrong ones!) They'll be back at the top sometime, and the new-for-2009 tech regs may well help them in that area.

I reckon they'll make a relatively quick resurgence (quicker than Mclaren did anyway), but I bet they'll be hoping to keep a hold for Fernando for a couple of years...If I were them I know I would be!

[sebbe]

In my opinion Alonso's contribution to the development of a car is overrated. Full stop.

To answer the topic, Renault is still bad with Alonso because he can't make a contribution big enough to get them out of their misery.
They're paying the price of loosing the mass-damper, Michelin's departure and new regulation.
But overall they're paying the price of cutting costs. They are supposed to be a top team with a third line team's budget.

Going back to your post on MP4-18, Spencifer, MP4-19 was a "debugged" version of MP4-18.

MP4-20 was the best car of the season. Thanks to Mercedes weak engine we lost the championship.
Would be nice to discuss MP4-18, whenever you want mate.

[icef1mkd]

Well, Renault have lost ground due to various mistakes and circumstances. With that momentum gone, they now look like they do not have the capability of a top-team.
They do give efforts, but still the Force is just not there anymore.

But I conccur with Spencer_Murphy that they have proven just the opposite with that ladder-climb from 2002 which ultimately resulted with back-to-back titles against McLaren and Ferrari in very fine style.

This formula of unifications and freezes limits the space of inovations even more than before, and that especially hampers them. Therefore, I also believe that the 2009 huge regulation change is their realistic chance of making a jump. Just like they did in 2005.

What they also miss, in my oppinion, is more support, faith and dedication from Alonso. The guy is a double champ, but I can see he dosen't want to grow with the team again...like Michael Schumacher did with a "certain" team Ferrari, which struggled two decades.

Cheers to all of you.