How hard would it be for other manufacturers to copy this?
Is this rumor indicating that Ferrari ICE has better fuel efficiency?
Should other manufacturers change ICE first to copy Ferrari idea?
This is not correct and this has been explained to you about 400 times.saviour stivala wrote: ↑10 Jul 2018, 05:50No matter what is thrown at it and no matter the different interpretations, the "K" max deployment output to the crankshaft is gapped at a max of 16obhp for a max of 33.33 seconds per lap. what people seems to not understand is that any portion of the max deployment allowed at a corrisponding proportion of the max time allowed can be deployed all along the whole lap if the system is so capable. the unlimitted output of the "H" after satisfying the allowed output of the "K" can be diverted to "ES".CriXus wrote: ↑09 Jul 2018, 23:26The diagram states the flow from MGU-H to MGU-K is unlimited (Rosberg calls it "energy for free"). I think what is going on is, that through better TC (better MGU-H) Ferrari are able to have those 120kw for more time throughout the lap. The energy from ES to MGU-K is limited (4MJ) per lap, but who says that Ferrari are not sending energy from MGU-H to MGU-K to engine.
Repeatability being it 400 time or 4000 times doesn’t qualify it as it being correct.hurril wrote: ↑11 Jul 2018, 16:16This is not correct and this has been explained to you about 400 times.saviour stivala wrote: ↑10 Jul 2018, 05:50No matter what is thrown at it and no matter the different interpretations, the "K" max deployment output to the crankshaft is gapped at a max of 16obhp for a max of 33.33 seconds per lap. what people seems to not understand is that any portion of the max deployment allowed at a corrisponding proportion of the max time allowed can be deployed all along the whole lap if the system is so capable. the unlimitted output of the "H" after satisfying the allowed output of the "K" can be diverted to "ES".CriXus wrote: ↑09 Jul 2018, 23:26The diagram states the flow from MGU-H to MGU-K is unlimited (Rosberg calls it "energy for free"). I think what is going on is, that through better TC (better MGU-H) Ferrari are able to have those 120kw for more time throughout the lap. The energy from ES to MGU-K is limited (4MJ) per lap, but who says that Ferrari are not sending energy from MGU-H to MGU-K to engine.
"special Q3 MODE/PARTY MODE/FREE LOAD MODE" both "H" and "K" will be sharing "ES" power, the "H" will be spinning the turbo "electric supercharging mode", with waste gates open, the "ICE" at maximum fueling permitted. in this "FREE LOAD" mode the maximum possible power output is extracted.atanatizante wrote: ↑09 Jul 2018, 22:42https://postimg.cc/image/yiwvylfdd/roon wrote: ↑09 Jul 2018, 19:324MJ maximum per lap from ES to MGUK.atanatizante wrote: ↑09 Jul 2018, 19:09I don`t know if that`s an old topic or the right thread in order to get some advised answer regarding what Nico Rosberg said about Ferrari have found in their ERS area but I`ll give it a go ...
This is the first part https://streamable.com/hg6gd
And here he elaborates further on: https://streamable.com/vh89e
From my understanding he speaks something about MGU-H, right? We knew that is allowed to have maximum 120kw/160hp for only 33 sec. and that`s 4MJ from which the only 2MJ could be provided from MGU-K. Nowhere said that they aren`t allowed to deploy 159HP for the rest of the time, isn`t it? Just to have the appropriate MGU-H in order to let them have that amount of power … so that`s it? Do they have a better “H”?
Unlimited MJ per lap from MGUH to MGUK.
MGUK delivery capped at 120kW/160hp at all times.
What he's implying is that their MGUK can deliver its max output of 120kW/160hp at all times during a lap. Implicit in the suggestion is that other teams can't sustain their MGUK in the same way, either using them less often or at a lower output.
Put more simply:
Ferrari: ICE output + 160hp constant
Other teams: ICE output + 160hp or less, intermittently
His claims about the Ferrari unit operating at a 'higher pressure' could indicate greater mass flow through the engine, implying Ferrari are able to run higher air-fuel ratios and more efficiently operate their compressor and turbine. That's how you could get beyond 4 MJ per lap delivered to the K.
There are no power limits for the MGUH. It could be 500hp for all we know. Correct me if I'm wrong. A greater-than-MGUK-output MGUH combined with sufficient ICE performance could keep the K sustained on its own, without resorting to Honda's ES>H>K type energy flow path.
Making more ICE power seems like it would go hand in hand with designing a bigger H capable of sustaining the K full time. As ICE output increases, max K run time increases. That could be the current development situation and could explain Ferrari's lead. Beyond this HP gains will be from the ICE only. Which might explain the interest in dropping the H in 2020. All the knowledge gained since 2014 will allow continued DI turbo ICE efficiency development, without the complexity, cost, and weight of compounding. Because there was going to be a point where ICE gains were going to surpass the development potential of the as-regulated electrical turbo-compounding.
P.S. I can't vouch for the truthfulness of the statements made in the video.
If I`m not wrong, from the above diagram, my understanding is that 4MJ is the max. amount of energy that could be deployed per lap just from ES through MGU-K to the drivetrain. But what is more important is to notice is the energy coming from MGU-H to MGU-K which is unlimited ...
So I could see 3 scenarios:
Ferrari : ICE output + >160hp (33sec. just 160HP)
Mercedes : ICE output + 160hp constant
Other teams: ICE output + 160hp or less, intermittently
And is worth to mention that those above figures are PU max. outputs that could be used only for that special Q3 mode or special moments like overtaking or restarts ...
The only limit between the MGUK and the engine is the power limit of 120kW.saviour stivala wrote: ↑12 Jul 2018, 08:21Those that after 5 years since introduction of the hybrid power unit are still interpreting the unlimited “H”-to-“K” power flow as being also unlimited from “K” –to- crankshaft should spend some time go google and read “insight: understanding the hybrid duty cycle = Mercedes AMG”.
Please can you point to the part of the FIA regulation that put a limit on “K to Crankshaft”. I can’t find a reference, and in this discussion that’s the only source that matters. What any of the engine manufacturers put out as promotional info is useless, they are not going to go into specifics.saviour stivala wrote: ↑12 Jul 2018, 08:21Those that after 5 years since introduction of the hybrid power unit are still interpreting the unlimited “H”-to-“K” power flow as being also unlimited from “K” –to- crankshaft should spend some time go google and read “insight: understanding the hybrid duty cycle = Mercedes AMG”.
The MGU-K is limited to 200Nm (referenced to the engine speed) according to article 5.2.3.Tom145145 wrote: ↑12 Jul 2018, 10:31Please can you point to the part of the FIA regulation that put a limit on “K to Crankshaft”. I can’t find a reference, and in this discussion that’s the only source that matters. What any of the engine manufacturers put out as promotional info is useless, they are not going to go into specifics.saviour stivala wrote: ↑12 Jul 2018, 08:21Those that after 5 years since introduction of the hybrid power unit are still interpreting the unlimited “H”-to-“K” power flow as being also unlimited from “K” –to- crankshaft should spend some time go google and read “insight: understanding the hybrid duty cycle = Mercedes AMG”.
Sorry, to be clear I was referring to the idea of a 4MJ or 33.33 second out put limit on the K. Which in my opinion has come about purely from trying to equate the old KERs technology with the new hybrid technology.rscsr wrote: ↑12 Jul 2018, 11:03The MGU-K is limited to 200Nm (referenced to the engine speed) according to article 5.2.3.Tom145145 wrote: ↑12 Jul 2018, 10:31Please can you point to the part of the FIA regulation that put a limit on “K to Crankshaft”. I can’t find a reference, and in this discussion that’s the only source that matters. What any of the engine manufacturers put out as promotional info is useless, they are not going to go into specifics.saviour stivala wrote: ↑12 Jul 2018, 08:21Those that after 5 years since introduction of the hybrid power unit are still interpreting the unlimited “H”-to-“K” power flow as being also unlimited from “K” –to- crankshaft should spend some time go google and read “insight: understanding the hybrid duty cycle = Mercedes AMG”.
That's stated in the appendix flow chart. Yes that flow chart acts as regulation.Tom145145 wrote: ↑12 Jul 2018, 11:40Sorry, to be clear I was referring to the idea of a 4MJ or 33.33 second out put limit on the K. Which in my opinion has come about purely from trying to equate the old KERs technology with the new hybrid technology.rscsr wrote: ↑12 Jul 2018, 11:03The MGU-K is limited to 200Nm (referenced to the engine speed) according to article 5.2.3.Tom145145 wrote: ↑12 Jul 2018, 10:31
Please can you point to the part of the FIA regulation that put a limit on “K to Crankshaft”. I can’t find a reference, and in this discussion that’s the only source that matters. What any of the engine manufacturers put out as promotional info is useless, they are not going to go into specifics.
It strikes me that if the FIA wanted to limit K output they would achieve this by limiting all K inputs.