Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[seezung]

[naukkis]

Is this legal in F1?

This is great innovation if it's legal, and might be reason for double wiring from battery. By decoupling compressor from turbine turbine efficiency ratio can be greatly increased by letting turbine to spin at best efficiency rpm range all the time. This is a great innovation.

No.

Are you sure? I remember that at least freewheel is legal, so you could spin only compressor and not turbine with MGU-H. With freewheel and low enough gear ratios I'd think that all-electric compressor driving is perfectly legal. And if it's legal it's the way to do it and every other should immediately go that route too as they could greatly improve MGU-H efficiency.

[Mr.G]

Is this legal in F1?

This is great innovation if it's legal, and might be reason for double wiring from battery. By decoupling compressor from turbine turbine efficiency ratio can be greatly increased by letting turbine to spin at best efficiency rpm range all the time. This is a great innovation.

No.

Are you sure? I remember that at least freewheel is legal, so you could spin only compressor and not turbine with MGU-H. With freewheel and low enough gear ratios I'd think that all-electric compressor driving is perfectly legal. And if it's legal it's the way to do it and every other should immediately go that route too as they could greatly improve MGU-H efficiency.

Good idea, but not possible under current regulations - you can have only one MGU-H (you need two for this) and turbo must be on the same crankshaft as compressor...

[Mr.G]

Slightly offtopic - I can't remember if transfer of energy K ->H -> ES was ever discussed?
What if on same tracks this could be beneficial?
After all, we expect MGU-H generation to be somehow limited :S
Unless ferrari made some breakthrough in this area - like regenerating x times more energy from heat...

This is probably used as the flow from K to ES is limited to 2MJ, so if you can generate more than 2MJ under breaking by K, the rest must go by the K-H-ES path...

[naukkis]

Good idea, but not possible under current regulations - you can have only one MGU-H (you need two for this) and turbo must be on the same crankshaft as compressor...

Most good ideas in F1 are about loopholes. What about one crankshaft which has MGU-H sitting both sides where axle freewheel is located - is there any regulations which prohibits such a arrangement. Energy flow can only be from or to MGU-H but if energy is made and consumed inside it....

[naukkis]

This is probably used as the flow from K to ES is limited to 2MJ, so if you can generate more than 2MJ under breaking by K, the rest must go by the K-H-ES path...

This K-H-ES path isn't exactly loophole, H can only make or consume energy, it can't flow through it. It probably can go around regulations by accelerating H with energy from ES and then extracting it from H to K but it's not the most efficient way to do it, and achieving constant flow will need some capacitive buffering too.

[wuzak]

Good idea, but not possible under current regulations - you can have only one MGU-H (you need two for this) and turbo must be on the same crankshaft as compressor...

Most good ideas in F1 are about loopholes. What about one crankshaft which has MGU-H sitting both sides where axle freewheel is located - is there any regulations which prohibits such a arrangement. Energy flow can only be from or to MGU-H but if energy is made and consumed inside it....

The turbine and compressor are connected by a shaft, not a crankshaft (which is found within the engine).

The regulations require that the compressor and turbine must have the same angular speed (ie rpm) at all times.

[Tommy Cookers]

naukkis seems to have said that the turbine isn't always at the best rpm

but isn't the H continuously either motoring or generating to a degree such that the turbine is always at the best rpm ?

[naukkis]

naukkis seems to have said that the turbine isn't always at the best rpm

but isn't the H continuously either motoring or generating to a degree such that the turbine is always at the best rpm ?

Engine needs exact amount of air, which is what rpm turbo has to rotate. H is regulating to that rpm and extract what is excess to power compressor.

[naukkis]

The regulations require that the compressor and turbine must have the same angular speed (ie rpm) at all times.

Ok, strict regulation. But how is FIA controlling that regulation as there's no rule how to implement it?

[saviour stivala]

naukkis seems to have said that the turbine isn't always at the best rpm

but isn't the H continuously either motoring or generating to a degree such that the turbine is always at the best rpm ?

One of the “H” 3 primary jobs is to control turbo speed/boost, either spooling it up or slowing it down, one other is, when exhaust gasses that are powering (spinning) the turbine is in excess of what boost the engine needs the “H” which is on the same shaft and rotates at the same speed will harvest energy, yet another function of the “H” is to spin the turbo (compressor) in solely electric supercharging mode while the waste gates are open and the exhaust gases are bypassing the turbine.

[johnny vee]

"The regulations require that the compressor and turbine must have the same angular speed (ie rpm) at all times."
-are you sure about this Wuzak?

I was under the impression that although the compressor and turbine is on a common shaft it is 'clutched' though.
IIRC, the rule states the connection between compressor and turbine can not be geared.

[henry]

Slightly offtopic - I can't remember if transfer of energy K ->H -> ES was ever discussed?
What if on same tracks this could be beneficial?
After all, we expect MGU-H generation to be somehow limited :S
Unless ferrari made some breakthrough in this area - like regenerating x times more energy from heat...

This is probably used as the flow from K to ES is limited to 2MJ, so if you can generate more than 2MJ under breaking by K, the rest must go by the K-H-ES path...

You can also use the route ICE-K-ES.

[henry]

This is probably used as the flow from K to ES is limited to 2MJ, so if you can generate more than 2MJ under breaking by K, the rest must go by the K-H-ES path...

This K-H-ES path isn't exactly loophole, H can only make or consume energy, it can't flow through it. It probably can go around regulations by accelerating H with energy from ES and then extracting it from H to K but it's not the most efficient way to do it, and achieving constant flow will need some capacitive buffering too.

This approach was discussed in some detail in the Honda PU thread, starting at page 845.

[Big Mangalhit]

I showed that article not cause it would be used on the F1 engine (it's clearly illegal) but mostly to show how the progress on F1 is influencing the road cars. Also to show how the MGU-H technology opens new avenues to optimize the turbo technology in terms of not wasting any energy and increasing total efficiency. I wonder if in the future we'll see electric driven compressor and electric harvesting turbines on more hybrids.

I am quite a newb here but it seems to me a very efficient geometry to use more of the energy available on the exhaust gas whilst also precisely control the amount of pressure needed from the compressor (the precise control of each component needs at any time seems to confer an advantage in my eyes).
I also wonder if this configuration is not even superior to the traditional MGU-H/Turbo of current F1 (or does the mechanical link between compressor/turbine has better energy transfer efficency?) and if so could it be proposed for the next engine regulation. I digress.

Sorry if it is a bit off-topic.

PS: Anyone has more of those pics of the Sauber with the "hood popped"