Why is Renault still so bad with Alonso?

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Miguel
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Re: Why is Renault still so bad with Alonso?

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Regarding the main topic, I have to pose a question. Could it be that the MP4-22 was very good out of the box, but comparison to the championship winning R-26 allowed it to improve where it was most needed? I mean, I'm pretty sure Alonso doesn't have a clue on how to compute complex integrals or what a bloody sum rule is but, on the other hand, could McLaren engineers benefit from comments like the Mac is lacking some front downforce in fast sweepers or trail-braking into hairpins is more delicate than in the Renault?
icef1mkd wrote:What they also miss, in my oppinion, is more support, faith and dedication from Alonso. The guy is a double champ, but I can see he dosen't want to grow with the team again...like Michael Schumacher did with a "certain" team Ferrari, which struggled two decades.
Do you really have that impression? What is giving you that idea? It's a honest question. From my point of view, I'm seeing an Alonso driving to his limit (and sometimes above). Not driving for small points may hurt Renault somewhat in the championship standings, though. I think that the only reason Piquet has got to test twice as much as Alonso lately is because the team wants to regain his conficence. But again, I'm just surprised we have such different points of view.
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Belatti
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Re: Why is Renault still so bad with Alonso?

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I agree with you Miguel. When Alonso is in 8th position he drives if like it was the last GP, he is running 2nd and if he wins he takes the WDC. He is driving like Gilles Villeneuve would do nowadays, and that´s a big big flatter.
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icef1mkd
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Re: Why is Renault still so bad with Alonso?

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Hola Miguel;

I definately conccur with you and Belatti that many times Magic Alonso is driving the hell out of the Renault car, and that's a real pleasure to watch. And I admire him as a pure racer and a proven champion.

But, I do have a impression that he's not fully supportive...as much as Renault deserves...or as much as I would like to hear. Here is how I see it (and sorry for the length):

At Hungaroring, in 2004, I had a short interview with Fernando after qualifying. It was my first race as a reporter so you bet I was naive, did not understand how to get answers I want, and thought that there is still some sentimentality in this sport. So, at the end of the chat, I asked Alonso how committed is he to Renault, since he established himself as a hot star of that brand. I asked that much more as a fan, much less like a reporter. And he replied that Michael Schumacher and Ferrari are a good example that commitment in F1 exists, that the relationships he builds inside Renault are very important to him, the he owes them much for his results, so he sees his affirmation and future in this team.

But, a year later, the first hit came – the revelation of the deal with McLaren, the bitter opponent from that very season. I bet Renault felt betrayed, at least a bit. Then, towards the end of the next season, the second hit – shocking accusation that the team leaves him feeling alone, that the team is not helping him enough in the fight against Schumacher, that Fisichella is not helping him....I mean, accusing the team that is not giving it all in that fight (which they did won and compromised next year’s car) was really low in my view.

Then McLaren...I would not comment it. And now back to Renault. I’m following his interviews regularly and I see he’s blunt and frank....but already in Malaysia or Bahrain (can’t recall exactly) he says that his patience would not be long with that car and results. That sounded more like a threat, rather like a motivational push. All the time he’s been critical of the car, its weak points, the strategic errors of the team...And that’s obvious, honest, it’s the reality, we see that....and even though he said racing in the midfield is a new challenge which would make him busier and better driver, one can clearly sniff the frustration (which he admitted in Bahrain). I got the impression that he really can’t stand fighting for the small points like he did in the early years with this team, and has no intention to swallow that and wait for better times = to grow with the team again.

I’ve recently read Martin Brundle’s half-term report
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type ... e&id=43189
and he has putted what I’ve been writing with much less words, but also much harsher. Our impressions relatively match.

Michael Schumacher used to thank his team all the time (like a parrot), I remember him even buying presents for all the members of the race team....something Fernando is lacking I guess.

If he shows his team some more faith and patience parallel to his pushing / demanding, then I’ll correct this opinion. Until then, he’s not the greatest team – player in my eyes.
"You will never know the feeling of a driver
when winning a race. The helmet hides feelings
that cannot be understood."
Ayrton Senna, November 1988

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Chaparral
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Re: Why is Renault still so bad with Alonso?

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Belatti wrote:I agree with you Miguel. When Alonso is in 8th position he drives if like it was the last GP, he is running 2nd and if he wins he takes the WDC. He is driving like Gilles Villeneuve would do nowadays, and that´s a big big flatter.
I actually laughed loudly when I saw this thread - and I also agree with you Belatti - Alonso will wring the neck of any car to get the best from it. The problem is that with regulations that see a parity arrangement with the design procedure that sees any team spend millions to pick up a few tenths a second per lap then - its not reality. Give the teams some open ended regs where their design team can make a difference from aero to chassis to engine department - what we have now is a 'spec formula' - and I cant believe some idiot opened a thread with 'Why is Renault so bad with Alonso' #-o
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Why is Renault still so bad with Alonso?

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Chaparral wrote:... I cant believe some idiot opened a thread with 'Why is Renault so bad with Alonso' #-o
This has been an arkward thread from the beginning. It is one of several threads which only seems to serve the purpose of bashing drivers to vent some personal frustration of the thread opener. I thought the best way of dealing with it is ignoring it. The above personal comment made me change my view. I don't like it one bit when people abuse each other on the board. We seem to have maintained some manners here at least during the months I have been posting here. Perhaps the senior users can give an opinion on the matter.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

smusi
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Re: Why is Renault still so bad with Alonso?

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I think that the main difference is that Renault didn't steal 760 pages of Ferrari's F2007 blueprints, and that they didn't have an insider in their main competition telling them all the secrets throughout the race weekend. I'm sure that's worth more than .6 a lap. Anyone disagree?

donskar
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Re: Why is Renault still so bad with Alonso?

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I agree with WhiteBlue: if you think a thread is opened by a person of substandard intelligence or is in any way unworthy, then ignore it. No trashing of each other, please.

And before you trash a driver, ask how you'd do against him.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

DaveKillens
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Re: Why is Renault still so bad with Alonso?

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I was serious a few months ago when I suggested that a change to the forum be made, to include in the header the name of the original poster. That way, you could avoid the topics started by the Troll(s).

There are tens of thousands of very good racers around the world, but just a very select few who can somehow do that little extra, just .2 or .3 seconds quicker in a lap. And those few find their way to the top, and wind up in F1.
Fernando Alonso is one of them, a great racer in my eyes. In fact, I personally rank him higher than either Hamilton or Raikonnen. He's just that good, a true great racer. Maybe I don't appreciate his personality (and would decline spending any personal time in his company), but give him a helmet and put him in a car... and enjoy.
The difficulties Renault have experienced, the roller-coaster ride up and down in the rankings only helps to emphasise just how quickly the technology changes in F1. I'm an old fart, and have seen this scenario played out dozens of times. No team stays on top forever, they all experience good years and bad years. And sadly, the current Renault car just isn't good enough. Not when compared to Ferrari and Mclaren.
But this year it's been a real pleasure watching Alonso drive the snot out of his car, taking it to the limit, and punching above his weight.
And I do agree that Fernando's recent performance is reminiscent of Gilles Villeneuve. But I believe Fernando is putting on a show to increase his market value when he decides to leave Renault and pursue a bigger contract. Gilles did it for the fans, and did it every lap.
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Chaparral
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Re: Why is Renault still so bad with Alonso?

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WhiteBlue wrote:
Chaparral wrote:... I cant believe some idiot opened a thread with 'Why is Renault so bad with Alonso' #-o
This has been an arkward thread from the beginning. It is one of several threads which only seems to serve the purpose of bashing drivers to vent some personal frustration of the thread opener. I thought the best way of dealing with it is ignoring it. The above personal comment made me change my view. I don't like it one bit when people abuse each other on the board. We seem to have maintained some manners here at least during the months I have been posting here. Perhaps the senior users can give an opinion on the matter.
Thats pot calling the kettle black WB or are you a born again - you were banned from a certain site months ago for playing this card [-X Im quite happy to cop criticism from anyone but I think people should think before posting and starting threads - I call a spade a spade and from a decent knowledge and connections to the sport and I never diss a driver no matter who (even good old Massa although he amuses me however) any driver in F1 is there because someone thinks theyre capable or bring whatever to the team and thats their business. I do disagree with the regulation structure and have for the last decade - they (the FIA) have 'dummed down' the formula to the point its become a 'spec' formula incapable of providing decent racing and engineers, tech guys and mechanics just being bored out of their skulls when in comes to innovation or even evolution and I'm not sure it will change dramatically in 2009 with KERS, aero changes and back to slicks - but as always we await with baited breath [-o< :)
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free and good men die like dogs - there's also the negative side' - Hunter S Thompson

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Why is Renault still so bad with Alonso?

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This is simply not true. I was initially suspended together with a guy who is the the most disgusting abuser at that site. Some of his closest personal friends have left him for the abuse he posts. This was done to provide a cool down of some controversial debates. I plainly admitt that I do not shy away from confrontation when it comes to opinions. I do care though HOW this opinion is expressed. During the temporary suspension I have used an alias which was common enough on that board to have. The admin took it badly and banned me for not respecting his wish for me to stay away. Since then quite a number of members of that board have come here and taken up new memebership here. You are one of several. Rest asured that I will not keep my mouth shut when it comes to abusive posting and deviating from the facts. I know that mods and senior members here share my desire to uphold a high standard of communication and honesty. That is why I like to be here and make this my favorite site.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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the stig
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Re: Why is Renault still so bad with Alonso?

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I'm just gonna go ahead and reply to the question instead of bickering about the thread...
Well you know Alonso is a very good driver but you can't bring a car from the midpack to the front within a year. The R28 is evolving but they are gonna needa whole new car to compete even with BMW...
Last edited by the stig on 09 Jul 2008, 00:21, edited 1 time in total.
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the stig
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Re: Why is Renault still so bad with Alonso?

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double post
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Metar
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Re: Why is Renault still so bad with Alonso?

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Another thing that has hampered the Renault score this year is their strategic misfortunes in the last few GPs. While the car was a dog in the opening races, it's now fast enough to allow Alonso consistent top-5 finishes in Q2, and even allowed Nelson to make it into the final Q3 session. However, the team keeps relying on low fuel-loads for their first stint, and time and time again Alonso is leapfrogged by what may be slower cars.

Then there's the last race at Silverstone, where despite realizing Alonso wears out his tyres very quickly, the team decided to fuel him to the finish with a 32-lap stint, even when the weather got worse. Considering all these points that were lost not due to unreliability (those were lost at Barcelona) but due to strategic errors that had nothing to do with the car's pace or the driver, I think it's safe to assume Renault scored quite a bit below what their true pace would net them.

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Spencifer_Murphy
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Re: Why is Renault still so bad with Alonso?

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Going back to your post on MP4-18, Spencifer, MP4-19 was a "debugged" version of MP4-18.

MP4-20 was the best car of the season. Thanks to Mercedes weak engine we lost the championship.
Would be nice to discuss MP4-18, whenever you want mate.
Yeah the MP4-19 was a debugged version of the MP4-18, but it still wasn't quick, the MP4-20 may have been a great chassis, but the package was poor (yes mainly down to the engine) but personally (there's not scientific basis to this...just a gut feeling) I feel that the Mercedes engine was weak due to poor intergation with the chassis (cooling etc.). Either way, they still took a while to get back to the top. I would talk about the MP4-18 with you, but I fear we may stumble upon what a total waste of time, money and effort it was hehe. (I liked the look of the car, but was hugely dissappointed wen they couldn't get it to pass a crash test or actually work for more than a handful of laps.)

About Alonso himself, he's a great driver, you don't become the youngest ever world champion, and a double back-to-back champion at that if you ain't good. He may or may not be the best development driver in the world, but when you've won two WDC's I think you might have some sort of idea about what you want from your car in order to make it go faster.

His driving at the moment is great, not sure about driving like Gilles, he does yet have that sort of "insanity" (I mean that in a good way btw) aspect to his driving at the moment, maybe its because the modern cars dont really tolerate WRC Powerslides. I do agree with Davekillens though in that, with Gilles, he loved to get the car sideways, it gave him a buzz, he just like to drive, and do it bloody quick too. He did it for the fans and to feel good.

I wonder though if Fernando is doing it for similar reasons, personally I feel Fernando is driving his balls off because if he doesn't he may just fall off the radar from certain Top Teams for 2009 and beyond...
Silence is golden when you don't know a good answer.

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shir0
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Re: Why is Renault still so bad with Alonso?

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That merc was quick all though the winter testing and it was quick out of the box. I think this whole driver technical prowess is blown way out of the propotion most of the time.
yeah right...ferrari data will do just that quite wonderfully...

For a driver to move to a new car and new tyres and bring 0.6 would be nothing short of witchcraft.
this could be the reason why FA's itching for that Ferrari seat :lol:

instant -0.6secs
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