Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[wuzak]

As this is technical forum....please give technical details of how free load mode and full delpoyment of energy can be done on every single lap of the race?

Not saying that anyone can or does but a few ways to put send more energy to the ES:
1. Burn fuel to motor the K up to the full 2 MJ limit.
2. Burn fuel to motor the K and send it down the rumoured K>H>ES path
3. Burn fuel with an inefficient tune that generates a lot of exhaust heat then harvest that with the K.

Example of “burning fuel to harvest” was given yesterday in FP1 by Vandoorne braking (which is when ERS-K is triggered into harvesting) while still on throttle (under power) but it backfired on him “braking a bit too hard” which triggered/kicked-in his brake-by-wire throttle fail safe system and ended up with/into an anti-stall situation.

On a slow lap during a qualy simulation.

[AJI]

...An engine driven ancillary delivering 15hp to the K at all times...

Would this be legal, and wouldn't the net result ultimately be less total power, what with neither system being 100% efficient?
Perhaps you could use that power transfer to improve drivability, but they'd have to carry more fuel.

It would be legal, and you can do it if you have a more efficient combustion process.

So, basically Ferrari's recent patent put into practise in their F1 car?

It's certainly 'road relevant'!

[godlameroso]

Would this be legal, and wouldn't the net result ultimately be less total power, what with neither system being 100% efficient?
Perhaps you could use that power transfer to improve drivability, but they'd have to carry more fuel.

It would be legal, and you can do it if you have a more efficient combustion process.

So, basically Ferrari's recent patent put into practise in their F1 car?

It's certainly 'road relevant'!

I have no clue what they're doing exactly this is one of the few ways they could do it.

[AJI]

It would be legal, and you can do it if you have a more efficient combustion process.

So, basically Ferrari's recent patent put into practise in their F1 car?

It's certainly 'road relevant'!

I have no clue what they're doing exactly this is one of the few ways they could do it.

Interesting. So, you're sure it's not a breach of the rules? I'm not disputing you, I'm genuinely intrigued…

[Big Tea]

The obvious question, which I assumed has an obvious answer is, is there a way to store energy that is not considered outside the rule of a single 'energy store'.

I can't see where the regs limit competitors to a single ES within the car?

An assumption as there is only the one set of monitors, plus the Ferrari battery being 'split' but still counted as one.
I was looking for anything stipulating it, but cannot find it as such, although I seem to recall hearing it.
Is it not right?

Edit, this is other than the small allowance in the controllers.

[godlameroso]

So, basically Ferrari's recent patent put into practise in their F1 car?

It's certainly 'road relevant'!

I have no clue what they're doing exactly this is one of the few ways they could do it.

Interesting. So, you're sure it's not a breach of the rules? I'm not disputing you, I'm genuinely intrigued…

I don't think they're doing anything illegal, they've been investigated for months, no technical directives or any protests. That's been my stance since the beginning of this whole ordeal.

[AJI]

I don't think they're doing anything illegal, they've been investigated for months, no technical directives or any protests. That's been my stance since the beginning of this whole ordeal.

Okay, I'm not trying to start anything here, I'm just trying to understand the benefits and legality.
I've been looking at the flow diagram. There is an implication (or at least I infer from that diagram) that an extra ancillary device that generates electricity to do anything but feed 'ancillary' devices is.., well.., not forbidden, but not permitted either?
That flow diagram is a true work of art. It's like 100 engineers and 100 lawyers had a baby and the foster parents were Toyota.

[Tzk]

Long time lurker (and new user) here. I'm not sure if this has been pointed out, but has anyone noticed the wording on the Energy flow diagram? It says:

"The difference between the maximum and minimum state of charge of the ES may not exceed 4MJ at any time the car is on track."

Most users on here seem to assume that you thus only may use 4MJ per lap our of the ES in total. What i read here is that you may deploy from the ES infinitely, but only 4MJ at a time and only if you're able to recharge those 4MJ between deployments (so not violating the min/max delta of 4MJ in the ES).

Example to make things a bit clearer:
Let's assume a regular circuit with corners and straights. We exit a corner with fully charged ES and deploy the full 4MJ while accelerating on the straight. While on the straight, we're able to harvest 4MJ again and charge the ES. Now, if we exit the next corner, we're again (!) able to fully deploy 4MJ of energy from the ES without braking the rules.

Maybe this is the trick Ferrari is using?

[hollus]

Could it be extra acceleration be as simple as deploying in the middle of the long straights, hence "reaching top speed" earlier, but then harvesting from the H at the end of the same long straight, even when at full throttle?
Say you tell the system that the H is to add 50 hp to the ES every time you are above 300km/h (and maybe say unless the third paddle is pressed?). You are effectively robbing the engine of power near top speed, but a 5% reduction in power near top speed is only a change from, say, 320km/h terminal speed to 314.4km/h.
Surely the time gained reaching 300 outweights the losses for the while over 300, while the extra harvest can be put to good use in deploying for longer in future straights?

Hmmm... not 100% sure this is making sense, I might have confused myself there.

[saviour stivala]

Not saying that anyone can or does but a few ways to put send more energy to the ES:
1. Burn fuel to motor the K up to the full 2 MJ limit.
2. Burn fuel to motor the K and send it down the rumoured K>H>ES path
3. Burn fuel with an inefficient tune that generates a lot of exhaust heat then harvest that with the K.

Example of “burning fuel to harvest” was given yesterday in FP1 by Vandoorne braking (which is when ERS-K is triggered into harvesting) while still on throttle (under power) but it backfired on him “braking a bit too hard” which triggered/kicked-in his brake-by-wire throttle fail safe system and ended up with/into an anti-stall situation.

On a slow lap during a qualy simulation.

The car to pit/pit to car radio conversation I quoted has been re-checked and I can confirm (exact words back and forward). What type of lap was it I do not know, what I know is that it was what happened, and that at least to me it means two things. That ERS-K harvesting is only triggered by pressing the brake pedal (recovers energy from the brakes that would otherwise goes to waste). That harvesting energy from brakes on most circuits the permitted 2MJ per lap is hard to achieve. Because of that some are forced (could be more than others) to burn fuel to harvest as much as possible so as not to end-up with a useless ES/battery on the next lap after deploying. Also that harvesting by burning fuel is not against the rules because still harvesting is done under braking. I will most probably get an other down vote for all this, but that doesn't matter, and I don't mean by you.

[PhillipM]

No, that's something anyone and everyone does from Day 1 - you deploy as much as you can early on for maximum lap time.

[Tzk]

Exactly. You try to be fast as fast as possible, rather than reaching a high speed at the end of the straight. Capping the topspeed and harvesting instead may even be better, because you can use that energy on the next straight to accelerate faster.

I suspect that ferrari either does this, or they‘re running more power and more drag than the other teams. This would lead to greater acceleration and the other teams catching up at the end of the straight (as shown on amus diagrams).

[AJI]

The car to pit/pit to car radio conversation I quoted has been re-checked and I can confirm (exact words back and forward). What type of lap was it I do not know, what I know is that it was what happened, and that at least to me it means two things. That ERS-K harvesting is only triggered by pressing the brake pedal (recovers energy from the brakes that would otherwise goes to waste). That harvesting energy from brakes on most circuits the permitted 2MJ per lap is hard to achieve. Because of that some are forced (could be more than others) to burn fuel to harvest as much as possible so as not to end-up with a useless ES/battery on the next lap after deploying. Also that harvesting by burning fuel is not against the rules because still harvesting is done under braking. I will most probably get an other down vote for all this, but that doesn't matter, and I don't mean by you.

Why would you get a down vote when you make sense? The fact that you state that ERS-K harvesting "is only triggered by pressing the brake pedal", then go on to suggest that it can be done other ways doesn't exactly help your argument, but it doesn't deserve a down vote IMO, but at least consider the contradiction in your argument..?

[saviour stivala]

Could it be extra acceleration be as simple as deploying in the middle of the long straights, hence "reaching top speed" earlier, but then harvesting from the H at the end of the same long straight, even when at full throttle?
Say you tell the system that the H is to add 50 hp to the ES every time you are above 300km/h (and maybe say unless the third paddle is pressed?). You are effectively robbing the engine of power near top speed, but a 5% reduction in power near top speed is only a change from, say, 320km/h terminal speed to 314.4km/h.
Surely the time gained reaching 300 outweights the losses for the while over 300, while the extra harvest can be put to good use in deploying for longer in future straights?

Hmmm... not 100% sure this is making sense, I might have confused myself there.

It does make sense and not only possible but in my opinion it is how it works provided the ERS-H/turbocharger combination can handle it. But that scenario is only possible when the turbocharger is being driven by exhaust gases and controlled by ERS-H, the working of the ERS-H in that situation had been described by experts as being “bang bang”. But not possible when the turbocharger is being operated in free load mode/ qualifying mode/ party mode, because the exhaust gases would be bypassing the turbine and the turbo will be solely motored by ERS-H.

[Tommy Cookers]

MR S S
you are the person who can't see Honda's telemetry showing K generation exiting bends
you are the person who had posted seemingly a thousand times that the rules say the K recovers only kinetic energy
and remember PU overrun push is allowed to be zero - the K can be continuously driven 'off-throttle' at 120 kW by fuel burn


anyway, regarding the suggested ES>K>H energy transfer directly through the K CU capacitor to the H CU capacitor ....
how can this comply with the rules demand for transfer to be via the MGU-H ? - as it has not gone through the MGU-H