Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[saviour stivala]

No, that's something anyone and everyone does from Day 1 - you deploy as much as you can early on for maximum lap time.

Yes correct and agree that one deploys as much as he can for maximum lap time, and what do you do with the ES/battery state of charge as regards the next lap?.

[saviour stivala]

Long time lurker (and new user) here. I'm not sure if this has been pointed out, but has anyone noticed the wording on the Energy flow diagram? It says:

"The difference between the maximum and minimum state of charge of the ES may not exceed 4MJ at any time the car is on track."

Most users on here seem to assume that you thus only may use 4MJ per lap our of the ES in total. What i read here is that you may deploy from the ERS infinitely, but only 4MJ at a time and only if you're able to recharge those 4MJ between deployments (so not violating the min/max delta of 4MJ in the ERS).

Example to make things a bit clearer:
Let's assume a regular circuit with corners and straights. We exit a corner with fully charged ERS and deploy the full 4MJ while accelerating on the straight. While on the straight, we're able to harvest 4MJ again and charge the ERS. Now, if we exit the next corner, we're again (!) able to fully deploy 4MJ of energy from the ERS without braking the rules.

Maybe this is the trick Ferrari is using?

4MJ per lap is what it is limited at.

[Tzk]

4MJ per lap is what it is limited at.

Could you please point me in the right direction where the regulations state this limit, please? Note that we're not talking ES->MGU-K deployment here, but total deployment of ES.

[saviour stivala]

Why would you get a down vote when you make sense? The fact that you state that ERS-K harvesting "is only triggered by pressing the brake pedal", then go on to suggest that it can be done other ways doesn't exactly help your argument, but it doesn't deserve a down vote IMO, but at least consider the contradiction in your argument..?

CONTRADICTION? what contradiction you see? you will do better looking at your post for contraditions, because first i wasnt suggesting ways it could be done, i was qouting how it was being done. and secondly being done while burning fuel harvesting was still triggered by the brake padel being pressed.

The bold and "quoted" part of your statement contradicts your acknowledgement of other K recovery methods… You know, that contradiction… Man, you're impossible.

maybe you can come forward with other K recovery methods, just practice what you preach.

[subcritical71]

No, that's something anyone and everyone does from Day 1 - you deploy as much as you can early on for maximum lap time.

Yes correct and agree that one deploys as much as he can for maximum lap time, and what do you do with the ES/battery state of charge as regards the next lap?.

I thought it was free load mode lap after lap, as mentioned by you.

[AJI]

CONTRADICTION? what contradiction you see? you will do better looking at your post for contraditions, because first i wasnt suggesting ways it could be done, i was qouting how it was being done. and secondly being done while burning fuel harvesting was still triggered by the brake padel being pressed.

The bold and "quoted" part of your statement contradicts your acknowledgement of other K recovery methods… You know, that contradiction… Man, you're impossible.

maybe you can come forward with other K recovery methods, just practice what you preach.

You've already quoted the obvious ones for me, in your post, that I referenced… Do you even read what you write?
Besides that, these other K recovery theories are literally everywhere in the PU threads of this site, and are fact in the Honda PU thread. Just because you choose to ignore them isn't my problem.

[henry]

Could it be extra acceleration be as simple as deploying in the middle of the long straights, hence "reaching top speed" earlier, but then harvesting from the H at the end of the same long straight, even when at full throttle?
Say you tell the system that the H is to add 50 hp to the ES every time you are above 300km/h (and maybe say unless the third paddle is pressed?). You are effectively robbing the engine of power near top speed, but a 5% reduction in power near top speed is only a change from, say, 320km/h terminal speed to 314.4km/h.
Surely the time gained reaching 300 outweights the losses for the while over 300, while the extra harvest can be put to good use in deploying for longer in future straights?

Hmmm... not 100% sure this is making sense, I might have confused myself there.

That would certainly seem to be a useful approach.

The most likely extra power would come from extending the period that electric-supercharger mode is deployed. If,say, they could deploy from 250kph to 300 and others couldn’t it might require about 250kJ extra from the ES. From 300 on the 120kW minus whatever the MGU-H is making, then when you come to harvest it also relies on what the H can make.

So if you can make more from the H you can deploy the electric supercharger mode longer, get to speed quicker and sacrifice a little top speed to recharge the ES.

As an example if you can make 80kW from the H instead of 60kW. After 300 kph you could run 4 seconds at self sustain plus then 2 at ICE only, harvesting from the H. You would get an extra 120kJ plus you’d have higher part throttle charging and, perhaps, higher blowdown and so lower discharge rate during electric-supercharge. So not far from being able to deploy from 250 to 300.

[saviour stivala]

4MJ per lap is what it is limited at.

Could you please point me in the right direction where the regulations state this limit, please? Note that we're not talking ERS->MGU-K deployment here, but total deployment of ERS.

“ lets assume a regular circuit with corners and straights. We exit a corner with fully charged ERS (it is the ES which can be fully charged or not) and deploy the full 4MJ while accelerating on the straight. While on the straight, we’re able to harvest 4MJ again and charge the ERS (ES), now if we exit the next corner, we’re again able to fully deploy 4MJ from the ERS without breaking the rules”. Deployment is only possible by ERS-K, It is the ES that is charged, so it means that your deployment to the ERS-K through which deployment is only permitted can only be 4MJ per lap.

[subcritical71]

4MJ per lap is what it is limited at.

Could you please point me in the right direction where the regulations state this limit, please? Note that we're not talking ERS->MGU-K deployment here, but total deployment of ERS.

“ lets assume a regular circuit with corners and straights. We exit a corner with fully charged ERS (it is the ES which can be fully charged or not) and deploy the full 4MJ while accelerating on the straight. While on the straight, we’re able to harvest 4MJ again and charge the ERS (ES), now if we exit the next corner, we’re again able to fully deploy 4MJ from the ERS without breaking the rules”. Deployment is only possible by ERS-K, It is the ES that is charged, so it means that your deployment to the ERS-K through which deployment is only permitted can only be 4MJ per lap.

Please refrain from posting incorrect or misleading information. This will only confuse others that come to this forum and don’t realize the source.

[seventhsin]

Can we estimate how much extra fuel it would take to harvest k in all traction limited zones? Would it even be necessary or efficient to utilise all zones?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[turbof1]

There is no 4MJ deploy limit. We already established that. The discussion is not moving forward by going in the cycle of "yes it is" "no it isn't". Next time posts about it will be removed.

So to fully state as a FACT, because it is a fact, there is no actual 4MJ deploy limit. There, now we can move on.

[saviour stivala]

There is no 4MJ deploy limit. We already established that. The discussion is not moving forward by going in the cycle of "yes it is" "no it isn't". Next time posts about it will be removed.

So to fully state as a FACT, because it is a fact, there is no actual 4MJ deploy limit. There, now we can move on.

I was under the impression (at least me) that we were talking ES to K deployment. because as far as I know only ES is the thing that can be recharged.

[Big Tea]

Could it be extra acceleration be as simple as deploying in the middle of the long straights, hence "reaching top speed" earlier, but then harvesting from the H at the end of the same long straight, even when at full throttle?
Say you tell the system that the H is to add 50 hp to the ES every time you are above 300km/h (and maybe say unless the third paddle is pressed?). You are effectively robbing the engine of power near top speed, but a 5% reduction in power near top speed is only a change from, say, 320km/h terminal speed to 314.4km/h.
Surely the time gained reaching 300 outweights the losses for the while over 300, while the extra harvest can be put to good use in deploying for longer in future straights?

Hmmm... not 100% sure this is making sense, I might have confused myself there.

That would certainly seem to be a useful approach.

The most likely extra power would come from extending the period that electric-supercharger mode is deployed. If,say, they could deploy from 250kph to 300 and others couldn’t it might require about 250kJ extra from the ES. From 300 on the 120kW minus whatever the MGU-H is making, then when you come to harvest it also relies on what the H can make.

So if you can make more from the H you can deploy the electric supercharger mode longer, get to speed quicker and sacrifice a little top speed to recharge the ES.

As an example if you can make 80kW from the H instead of 60kW. After 300 kph you could run 4 seconds at self sustain plus then 2 at ICE only, harvesting from the H. You would get an extra 120kJ plus you’d have higher part throttle charging and, perhaps, higher blowdown and so lower discharge rate during electric-supercharge. So not far from being able to deploy from 250 to 300.

Would it not be the most benefit to have the highest speed for longest, as it covers the most ground is shortest time?
Losing a second last thing before brake would loose more than a second while exiting the previous corner (or not?)

[GrandAxe]

The FIA has said that the Ferrari system is very complicated and considering that the power boost is only coming to some teams after a software upgrade, the mind immediately considers AI.

A theoretical software map might include machine learning software that can turn hardware (or other software) switches on and off depending on circumstance - that way, alternate functions of components can be concealed. Such an approach would confound the devil out anyone outside the implementers of the software and hardware. Machine learning software on its own is very complicated, talk less a system that might be part software, part electronic hardware, part mechanical/hydraulic/pneumatic.

Such a system might be able to learn and react to sensor readings as well as other parameters to know when to switch modes, so that the FIA (and you or I) would never be the wiser. For instance, if all the FIA has to monitor compliance are two DC sensors, then they might be beaten if circuits are made to behave in non-obvious ways, or their functionality changes completely.

You don't have that sort of compute power available on the car, not even close.

It doesn't take much computational power to run machine learning (little devices e.g. phones, camera's come loaded with it these days). The only aspect that requires computational power is the building the model, which wouldn't be done in the car, but by code writers in an office.

[saviour stivala]

If MR Moderator wants to stop this discussion it is of course his prerogative, but if I am permitted, I was under the impression that the gentleman I answered was saying “that for example after a corner and on the straight they deploy their 4MJ, and before the next straight they would for example harvested back another 4MJ, and on the next straight they will again deploy those 4 MJ". Can anybody tell me where would those harvested back 4MJ would have been stored if not in the ES? And so, how many 4MJ per lap is one allowed to deploy from ES? We all know that deployment id only possible through K.