Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[roon]

I keep coming back to combustion & pressure charging. This is where the biggest gains are to be made within these regulations.

...they may be hitting a wall with the hybrid tech. Some teams may already be deploying max K output throughout laps.

The teams had a good understanding of the largely unchanged hybrid rules 5 years ago, maybe further. I think it's safe to assume the legal limits of K delivery have already been met. 120kW whenever, wherever, for any duration. 8MJ K deploy min/lap. That achieved mainly through the "unlimited-unlimited" ES<>H<>K pathway. That should have been a dev target 5 years ago. Beyond that it's ICE and pressure charging. All further power gains being delivered through the piston conrods.

Ferrari were cracking intake manifolds last year. Perhaps they have a higher mass airflow system as Rosberg suggested. Turboshaft geared-up, flywheel effects of the rotating masses, impeller & housing design, etc.

There are really no power limits for the H. Why would this not be maximized. Why would the H not be 500hp at this point in time. Just throwing big numbers out there because the 40-60kW figure for the H keeps getting bandied about, which seems silly, really. The unlimited motor has half the power of the limited motor?

The H is how you deliver much more than 120kW from the ES to ICE. Via air pressure. If your ICE makes the supposed 700-800hp at 'normal' boost, surely a 500hp blast of air from the megacompressor would help you down the straights a bit. Plus the little kick from the 120kW K, of course.

Beyond flywheel and battery energy storage we might also consider compressed air storage. Storage would not be efficient unless highly compressed. The crankcase may be an option. That would be metered by the sump gas control scheme. Leakage of air through the piston rings near TDC would supply the crankcase with high pressure air. Reverse leakage from crankcase to cylinder would supply oil to the CC. Vented reservoir pressure would supply a power boost during acceleration. Since the crankcase pressure could be very high, similar to CC compression stroke pressure, the conveyance lines could be very small, and the reservoir supply duration lengthened.

[Zynerji]

I keep coming back to combustion & pressure charging. This is where the biggest gains are to be made within these regulations.

...they may be hitting a wall with the hybrid tech. Some teams may already be deploying max K output throughout laps.

The teams had a good understanding of the largely unchanged hybrid rules 5 years ago, maybe further. I think it's safe to assume the legal limits of K delivery have already been met. 120kW whenever, wherever, for any duration. 8MJ K deploy min/lap. That achieved mainly through the "unlimited-unlimited" ES<>H<>K pathway. That should have been a dev target 5 years ago. Beyond that it's ICE and pressure charging. All further power gains being delivered through the piston conrods.

Ferrari were cracking intake manifolds last year. Perhaps they have a higher mass airflow system as Rosberg suggested. Turboshaft geared-up, flywheel effects of the rotating masses, impeller & housing design, etc.

There are really no power limits for the H. Why would this not be maximized. Why would the H not be 500hp at this point in time. Just throwing big numbers out there because the 40-60kW figure for the H keeps getting bandied about, which seems silly, really. The unlimited motor has half the power of the limited motor?

The H is how you deliver much more than 120kW from the ES to ICE. Via air pressure. If your ICE makes the supposed 700-800hp at 'normal' boost, surely a 500hp blast of air from the megacompressor would help you down the straights a bit. Plus the little kick from the 120kW K, of course.

Beyond flywheel and battery energy storage we might also consider compressed air storage. Storage would not be efficient unless highly compressed. The crankcase may be an option. That would be metered by the sump gas control scheme. Leakage of air through the piston rings near TDC would supply the crankcase with high pressure air. Reverse leakage from crankcase to cylinder would supply oil to the CC. Vented reservoir pressure would supply a power boost during acceleration. Since the crankcase pressure could be very high, similar to CC compression stroke pressure, the conveyance lines could be very small, and the reservoir supply duration lengthened.

Careful, I was called "Mythical" by speculating that Honda may be using the piston to store a highly compressed air charge in the intake runner... But that would make sense as a means of cracking intake manifolds.

[roon]

Don't think you'd do it in the intake runner. Intake manifold would only see boost pressure levels, which still may be relatively high for the Ferrari engine, hence cracked manifolds. Compressed air storage would occur elsewhere, if advantageous. I'd guess the crankcase. Crankcase pressure would supplement the compressor for (likely) brief intervals with highly-compressed (thousands of PSI) oiled air, at little weight penalty since it re-purposes existing components (piston rings and breather valves).

I think the trick would be how to vent the combustion chambers to the crankcase only during engine braking. A passive valve (piston ring or new device) that closes at combustion pressures, but remains open at compression pressures, perhaps. Combined with active sump valves (which became illegal for 2018) which would close during braking and open under throttle.

[Zynerji]

Don't think you'd do it in the intake runner. Intake manifold would only see boost pressure levels, which still may be relatively high for the Ferrari engine, hence cracked manifolds. Compressed air storage would occur elsewhere, if advantageous. I'd guess the crankcase. Crankcase pressure would supplement the compressor for (likely) brief intervals with highly-compressed (thousands of PSI) oiled air at little weight penalty, since it re-purposes existing components (piston rings and breather valves).

I think the trick would be how to vent the combustion chambers to the crankcase only during engine braking.

My hypothesis was based upon an article where Honda stated they were fully closing the intake runner after the plenum. I was trying to understand why one would do that, and reverse charging the runner was the only thing i could think of.

[roon]

My hypothesis was based upon an article where Honda stated they were fully closing the intake runner after the plenum. I was trying to understand why one would do that, and reverse charging the runner was the only thing i could think of.

That may have been a reference to ITBs. Closing the throttle plates off-throttle supplies engine braking in a petrol engine. What was the context of the mention?

[gruntguru]

the point was were do you store it when harvested back and till you send it out (deploy it out on the next straight).

As pointed out several times, you just harvest and deploy from/to the ERS but to circumvent the 4mj Limit, you do it via for example via the mgu-h.

This has nothing to do with your proposed "free load mode". Which is basically motoring the turbo via the mgu-h with open wastegate(s).

but the point was and still is, were do you store the harvested 4MJ so as you will be able to deploy it on the next straight? that was what I was arguing with the other gentleman, and why is it that the point i raised is being skipped? did we get to the point of opposing someone just for the sake of opposing? i hope not.

There is no limit to how much energy is stored per lap in the ES. You just have to stay in the 4MJ band. So you can store 2MJ in every braking section and deploy 2MJ during every acceleration for a total of 30 MJ per lap as long as only 2MJ is K>ES and 4MJ is ES>K. The remainder must be H>ES and ES>H.

[godlameroso]

My hypothesis was based upon an article where Honda stated they were fully closing the intake runner after the plenum. I was trying to understand why one would do that, and reverse charging the runner was the only thing i could think of.

That may have been a reference to ITBs. Closing the throttle plates off-throttle supplies engine braking in a petrol engine. What was the context of the mention?

How about hydraulic, much more compact than pneumatic, much easier to build the required pressure. You already have a hydraulic system in the transmission.

Your idea of briefly sending large amounts of boost is interesting, at which point does air dilution lower the heating value of the fuel, given the combustion time scales? In other words if combustion happens in a set amount of time, the burned fuel can only offer so much heat. The higher the air mass the greater amount of air molecules that will be excited by the fixed heat release from your combustion process. At which point is there so much air that there isn't enough sustained heat from your combustion process to alter the volume of said air in a manner that's useful?

After all it's the rapid volume expansion of a parcel of air, due to the combustion process, that is doing all the work correct?

Finally, if you do send something crazy like 500hp to the ICE those are an additional 500hp worth of pumping losses the ICE will have to deal with. I'm not saying you're wrong, not at all, rather perhaps there's a sweet spot, and likely the MGU-H would be built around that in combination with the turbo.

[gruntguru]

Storing energy in a pressure vessel is very low density. Very rough formula is E = delta P x V. So if you have a one cubic metre (1000 litre) tank and increase the pressure by 1 bar (100 kPa) the energy change is 1 x 100 = 100 kJ. Ten bar is 1000 kJ = 1 MJ. The real numbers are less than this - and 1000 l is a very big tank.

[roon]

A 500hp H should exhaust the ES in ~8 sec. 300hp in 13 sec. So on and so forth. Can the turbine potentially harvest at anywhere near such rates? As godlameroso pointed out, if combustion can't heat the greater mass of air, then it's no advantage. Unless work can be imposed on the piston regardless. So how to introduce compressor flow into the cylinder upon piston descent while still meeting the letter of the rules requiring a four-stroke engine. Otherwise I'll have to think of a way to have have the compressor push upon the pistons directly via gas pressure. Same goes for the exhaust side and extra turbine harvesting...

Storing energy in a pressure vessel is very low density. Very rough formula is E = delta P x V. So if you have a one cubic metre (1000 litre) tank and increase the pressure by 1 bar (100 kPa) the energy change is 1 x 100 = 100 kJ. Ten bar is 1000 kJ = 1 MJ. The real numbers are less than this - and 1000 l is a very big tank.

Not meaning to suggest they have a weather balloon crammed inside the sidepods. Increase pressure, reduce tank size. But even then, per your formula, a ten liter tank (crankcase volume?) at 80 bar would give 0,08 MJ. Five liters giving 40 kJ, etc. If used solely as an ES, it's not so good. But as a way to slightly reduce compressor work, while supplying vaporized oil to the intake (now illegal), maybe it's ok.

How about hydraulic, much more compact than pneumatic, much easier to build the required pressure. You already have a hydraulic system in the transmission.

Still likely need an accumulator. How would to apply the hydraulic forces? A while back I threw out an idea to have an oversized water or oil pump that could motor. But looking at the energy flow diagram recently, I see that the arrow going from ICE to engine accessories is a unidirectional arrow. I don't think they want anyone motoring a pump, hence that arrow direction only suggesting consumption by the ancillaries.

[saviour stivala]

Are you meaning ERS or ES? The battery is the Energy Store, the ERS would be the entire Energy Recovery System (ES, K, and H). Just want to prevent confusion in case the conversation grows.

Sorry for that. I was refering to the energy stors), not ers. I‘ve edited my posts above for clarification.

Does your editing your posts means I have to also edit my questioning your posts?

[saviour stivala]

As pointed out several times, you just harvest and deploy from/to the ERS but to circumvent the 4mj Limit, you do it via for example via the mgu-h.

This has nothing to do with your proposed "free load mode". Which is basically motoring the turbo via the mgu-h with open wastegate(s).

but the point was and still is, were do you store the harvested 4MJ so as you will be able to deploy it on the next straight? that was what I was arguing with the other gentleman, and why is it that the point i raised is being skipped? did we get to the point of opposing someone just for the sake of opposing? i hope not.

There is no limit to how much energy is stored per lap in the ES. You just have to stay in the 4MJ band. So you can store 2MJ in every braking section and deploy 2MJ during every acceleration for a total of 30 MJ per lap as long as only 2MJ is K>ES and 4MJ is ES>K. The remainder must be H>ES and ES>H.

The answer and question as to where is energy harvested and stored in the only place permitted by rules/regulations in the ERS system was solved by the gentleman editing his posts.
In my opinion “circumventing” anything to do with rules and regulations will be on the wrong side of said rules and regulations.
“My proposed free load mode” had nothing to do with this here ES “energy storing” conversation.
In my opinion there is a limit as to what can be stored "per lap/what goes in per lap as well as what goes out per lap" as regards the ES.
As energy can only be stored in ES, there is not only a limit as to what is stored in ES per lap but also a Limit of what can be deployed per lap by "K"

[henry]

Storing energy in a pressure vessel is very low density. Very rough formula is E = delta P x V. So if you have a one cubic metre (1000 litre) tank and increase the pressure by 1 bar (100 kPa) the energy change is 1 x 100 = 100 kJ. Ten bar is 1000 kJ = 1 MJ. The real numbers are less than this - and 1000 l is a very big tank.

Conveniently 1000l is 1 cubic metre. I use this all the time to estimate compost, water, fertiliser use in my garden. Think kerbside delivery bag.

[saviour stivala]

I keep coming back to combustion & pressure charging. This is where the biggest gains are to be made within these regulations.

...they may be hitting a wall with the hybrid tech. Some teams may already be deploying max K output throughout laps.

The teams had a good understanding of the largely unchanged hybrid rules 5 years ago, maybe further. I think it's safe to assume the legal limits of K delivery have already been met. 120kW whenever, wherever, for any duration. 8MJ K deploy min/lap. That achieved mainly through the "unlimited-unlimited" ES<>H<>K pathway. That should have been a dev target 5 years ago. Beyond that it's ICE and pressure charging. All further power gains being delivered through the piston conrods.

Ferrari were cracking intake manifolds last year. Perhaps they have a higher mass airflow system as Rosberg suggested. Turboshaft geared-up, flywheel effects of the rotating masses, impeller & housing design, etc.

There are really no power limits for the H. Why would this not be maximized. Why would the H not be 500hp at this point in time. Just throwing big numbers out there because the 40-60kW figure for the H keeps getting bandied about, which seems silly, really. The unlimited motor has half the power of the limited motor?

The H is how you deliver much more than 120kW from the ES to ICE. Via air pressure. If your ICE makes the supposed 700-800hp at 'normal' boost, surely a 500hp blast of air from the megacompressor would help you down the straights a bit. Plus the little kick from the 120kW K, of course.

Beyond flywheel and battery energy storage we might also consider compressed air storage. Storage would not be efficient unless highly compressed. The crankcase may be an option. That would be metered by the sump gas control scheme. Leakage of air through the piston rings near TDC would supply the crankcase with high pressure air. Reverse leakage from crankcase to cylinder would supply oil to the CC. Vented reservoir pressure would supply a power boost during acceleration. Since the crankcase pressure could be very high, similar to CC compression stroke pressure, the conveyance lines could be very small, and the reservoir supply duration lengthened.

Careful, I was called "Mythical" by speculating that Honda may be using the piston to store a highly compressed air charge in the intake runner... But that would make sense as a means of cracking intake manifolds.

The crankcase of a formula engine is ran in a partial vacuum, that design system has been used for ages.
The “H” doesn’t deliver anything to the ICE. The only delivery allowed directly to the ICE is by the “K”.

[saviour stivala]

Agree with people further up this page that combustion & pressure charging developments is where the biggest gains are made. The advancements achieved where made possible to be used on the racetrack by the developments of the tools necessary to control the running on the edge of between pumping out the max possible power and total disaster of such combustion. Central to this was the development of in-cylinder sensors. These ongoing developments goes hand in hand with development ever higher octane rating of fuel, but there will always remain the fight to keep everything together (reliability).
As to the hybrid system of which the electric power deployment is a fixed/regulated/limited number, the manufacturers, and not the teams, fully understood it from the time of its formulation and so designed accordingly because they were part of that formulation.
At the beginning of the hybrid formula running on track some were able to deploy electric power more than other around a lap, this was due to reliability constrains, when reliability started being improved, some were even able to deploy all around a lap, but than for those that had the reliability this improvement came about by overcoming the difficulty of fully harvesting what is permitted to be harvested, because one cannot deploy more than one can harvest.

[Muniix]

1% the compute average of mobiles phones is pretty handy where the the dataset being processed is small and has few dimensions (unlike, say millions of dimensions in a jpeg or video) as will be the case with turning switches on or off based on a narrow set of parameters in an F1 car.

Machine learning algorithms are quite varied - from those that basically require more storage space and RAM than computational power and can run on bog standard devices (e.g. pos taggers); to systems that require super computers (e.g. weather forecasting and gene sequencing). Not everything requires GPU and other specialist hardware with frightening names.

Your reading sensor data, and processing it, it's not on/off single bit digital data, it's potentially more complex than recognising 'cats'.

Its surely not. Every sensor is a single dimension only.

A system as the one we are discussing might only want to know when the car is standing still, cornering, accelerating beyond a threshold, braking from above a threshold speed, one or two safety parameters; altogether only a handful of dimensions. Turning switches on or of in an F1 car should be pretty straightforward with the main challenges being integrating the machine learning system with the design/function of the car.

Recognising cats on the other hand, requires juggling millions of dimensions.

Talking about turning switches on or of in an F1 car to change functionality ... It could be anything from simple off/on switch actions, to loading custom software on the go or taking circuits offline to reprogramme them. The AI software could also be hidden like a virus to pop up when required. All these techniques can both change functionality of an engine and mask the method of change without requiring massive computational power.

There's no custom user code that can be installed for execution into the standard controller unit.

It's a shitty Microsoft/Williams Unit using a ancient dual IBM cell cores and a TPU timing processing unit, couple hundred Mhz per core. Two SoC one for powertrain and one for chassis.
The TPU manual is 200+ page document.
It's really handicapping the TJI usage as it's designed before HAJI let alone TJI in shared fuel injector, and prechamber scavenge injector/valve.