2018 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 27-29 July

[foxmulder_ms]

This race was the championship in a nutshell. Steady HAM, sloppy VET, frustrated BOT, DNF VER and smiling RIC

hahahaaaa, great one.

[GrandAxe]

I feel like, over the course of this half of the season, Ferrari have dropped the ball more than Mercedes but that we mustn’t also forget Mercedes’ own mistakes.

- Australia and Austria were the big two races that slipped through their fingers, but arguably Silverstone as well, given they started from pole. Lots of dropped points for Bottas that they can feel aggrieved about and both teams will likely claim China as one they ‘should’ have won

- but Ferrari certainly has more: China, Baku, Germany and Hungary were all guilt-edged chances and, given Mercedes’ issues in Austria, they’ll also feel they should have done more to capitalise but for a silly mistake in Qualifying


Nevertheless, what this shows is how easy it is to make mistakes when things are so finely poised and that both teams have can easily outscore the other based on minuscule margins.

My view is that, pending balance shifting updates, the difference this year is that the majority of upcoming races will favour Ferrari - Spa, Monza, Russia and Singapore should all be in their favour now, so if they execute the whole game could flip on its head.

Unless it rains.

People can argue all they like about who is the best driver in the wet but the facts speak for themselves. The last 9 wet races have all been won by the same driver. It’s not vettel

Which could mean, that the car he had in all this races is very good in rain. I don't say that that is the case but in this discussion you people leave out the most possible solutions because it suits your favorite driver. If you have a neutral look on things there always are multiple explanations and the better car is even more possible than the theory that Hamilton is so much better in rain than every other driver. I think it is a mix of all that. Verstappen on Saturday showed that "a god in rain" (not from me, from some people here and the media) fails if the car is not good in rain or mixed conditions. It's all about the mix car and driver where the car has more of the part.

In the rain, its the driver, not the car. When its wet, quality naturally rises to the top.
Just look at those who made the top ten in Saturday's quali for example. The Red Bull drivers failed only because the team employed strange strategy (especially with Ricciardo).

[Jolle]

Unless it rains.

People can argue all they like about who is the best driver in the wet but the facts speak for themselves. The last 9 wet races have all been won by the same driver. It’s not vettel

Which could mean, that the car he had in all this races is very good in rain. I don't say that that is the case but in this discussion you people leave out the most possible solutions because it suits your favorite driver. If you have a neutral look on things there always are multiple explanations and the better car is even more possible than the theory that Hamilton is so much better in rain than every other driver. I think it is a mix of all that. Verstappen on Saturday showed that "a god in rain" (not from me, from some people here and the media) fails if the car is not good in rain or mixed conditions. It's all about the mix car and driver where the car has more of the part.

In the rain, its the driver, not the car. When its wet, quality naturally rises to the top.
Just look at those who made the top ten in Saturday's quali for example. The Red Bull drivers failed only because the team employed strange strategy (especially with Ricciardo).

In tricky situations like rain its not as clearly "its the driver" or "its the car". A wrong tire, just a few minutes of extra rain or a setup that doesn't work can cost you seconds a lap instead of tenths.

[TAG]

In tricky situations like rain its not as clearly "its the driver" or "its the car". A wrong tire, just a few minutes of extra rain or a setup that doesn't work can cost you seconds a lap instead of tenths.

this is a very circular argument at the moment, a better driver will lessen the impact of a wrong tire, a few minutes extra of rain.

In the end one 4 time WDC has results that far exceed the results of the other 4 time WDC when it's wet out and no amount of hemming and hawing or whataboutism thrown into the discussion changes that.

[sosic2121]

In tricky situations like rain its not as clearly "its the driver" or "its the car". A wrong tire, just a few minutes of extra rain or a setup that doesn't work can cost you seconds a lap instead of tenths.

this is a very circular argument at the moment, a better driver will lessen the impact of a wrong tire, a few minutes extra of rain.

In the end one 4 time WDC has results that far exceed the results of the other 4 time WDC when it's wet out and no amount of hemming and hawing or whataboutism thrown into the discussion changes that.

Q2?

[GrandAxe]

That's true. I normally don't care if someone is a fan of a person he does not even know and who's strength he cannot remotely estimate and because I don't understand the concept of being a fan. I can be a fan of my daughter or wife because I know them. But this "my toy is better than yours" is annoying and even my 2 year old daughter does not do things like that. I always call it kindergarden and that what this forum is at least 3 days after every race.

Its about the drivers and F1, but you've used the words "I" 5 times and "my" 3 times. A bit of a hint that's not so good.

Everyone has a right to be a fan of something, whether because of statistics or because of association. F1 and all other sport will not exist without fans.

Its also a fact that certain F1 drivers are better than others, otherwise the likes of Maldonado and Bruno Senna would still find a market.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

In tricky situations like rain its not as clearly "its the driver" or "its the car". A wrong tire, just a few minutes of extra rain or a setup that doesn't work can cost you seconds a lap instead of tenths.

this is a very circular argument at the moment, a better driver will lessen the impact of a wrong tire, a few minutes extra of rain.

In the end one 4 time WDC has results that far exceed the results of the other 4 time WDC when it's wet out and no amount of hemming and hawing or whataboutism thrown into the discussion changes that.

Q2?

Driver/Lap Time/Time of the Day
Vettel/1:28.636/15:28:17
Sainz/1:30.771/15:30:21
Max/1:31.178/15:30:46
Lewis/1:31.242/15:30:31
Gasly/1:31.286/15:30:39
Bottas/1:32.081/15:30:52
Hartley/1:32.590/15:30:58

Of all the drivers who finished their lap between 15:30:20 and 15:30:60 when it was pouring, Max clocked the best lap. Although Lewis also came out along with Vettel almost at the same time, but by then the strategic error was committed as Lewis was on US and Vettel came out with inters, at a time when a good part of the circuit was wet and was about to rain. Ferrari got it right with Vettel, but wrong with Kimi.

[TAG]

In tricky situations like rain its not as clearly "its the driver" or "its the car". A wrong tire, just a few minutes of extra rain or a setup that doesn't work can cost you seconds a lap instead of tenths.

this is a very circular argument at the moment, a better driver will lessen the impact of a wrong tire, a few minutes extra of rain.

In the end one 4 time WDC has results that far exceed the results of the other 4 time WDC when it's wet out and no amount of hemming and hawing or whataboutism thrown into the discussion changes that.

Q2?

massive haul of points in Q2 it must have been so brave going out on inters when everyone else was giving the US a shot.

[dans79]

Q2?

This is a really poor argument! The only thing that maters with regards to Q2 is getting a lap in that's good enough to get you into Q3 without abusing the tires to much.

[marvin78]

That's true. I normally don't care if someone is a fan of a person he does not even know and who's strength he cannot remotely estimate and because I don't understand the concept of being a fan. I can be a fan of my daughter or wife because I know them. But this "my toy is better than yours" is annoying and even my 2 year old daughter does not do things like that. I always call it kindergarden and that what this forum is at least 3 days after every race.

Its about the drivers and F1, but you've used the words "I" 5 times and "my" 3 times. A bit of a hint that's not so good.

Everyone has a right to be a fan of something, whether because of statistics or because of association. F1 and all other sport will not exist without fans.

Its also a fact that certain F1 drivers are better than others, otherwise the likes of Maldonado and Bruno Senna would still find a market.

Please read my post and keep in mind that english is not my first language. Don't interprete, just read. Then you geht what I mean. I don't want to forbid fandom. I just explained how I come to my view of the things. I don't need to understand fandom to accept it. So far I do that just to the point where it get's ridiculous. That's the case in these threads with a few people.

[GrandAxe]

Which could mean, that the car he had in all this races is very good in rain. I don't say that that is the case but in this discussion you people leave out the most possible solutions because it suits your favorite driver. If you have a neutral look on things there always are multiple explanations and the better car is even more possible than the theory that Hamilton is so much better in rain than every other driver. I think it is a mix of all that. Verstappen on Saturday showed that "a god in rain" (not from me, from some people here and the media) fails if the car is not good in rain or mixed conditions. It's all about the mix car and driver where the car has more of the part.

In the rain, its the driver, not the car. When its wet, quality naturally rises to the top.
Just look at those who made the top ten in Saturday's quali for example. The Red Bull drivers failed only because the team employed strange strategy (especially with Ricciardo).

In tricky situations like rain its not as clearly "its the driver" or "its the car". A wrong tire, just a few minutes of extra rain or a setup that doesn't work can cost you seconds a lap instead of tenths.

True, but those things are statistical outliers that will be averaged out over one or more seasons. They are only important in the odd race where they happen.
In the end, driver quality would still shine through as far the most dominant factor in the wet.

[Jolle]

In the rain, its the driver, not the car. When its wet, quality naturally rises to the top.
Just look at those who made the top ten in Saturday's quali for example. The Red Bull drivers failed only because the team employed strange strategy (especially with Ricciardo).

In tricky situations like rain its not as clearly "its the driver" or "its the car". A wrong tire, just a few minutes of extra rain or a setup that doesn't work can cost you seconds a lap instead of tenths.

True, but those things are statistical outliers that will be averaged out over one or more seasons. They are only important in the odd race where they happen.
In the end, driver quality would still shine through as far the most dominant factor in the wet.

Oh yes. HAM is in that special group of excellent rain drivers, as might VER be. But it’s not that with one bad race or one bad session the are kicked out of that group. The wrong tires or a wrong (PU) setting can change too much. Just look at VER during Q.

Also, the good rain racers will race in the rain, which is taking risks. They have a relative high chance of crashing. While others, who are more “driving fast” are not pushing and have less of a chance of a crazy slide.

[sosic2121]

this is a very circular argument at the moment, a better driver will lessen the impact of a wrong tire, a few minutes extra of rain.

In the end one 4 time WDC has results that far exceed the results of the other 4 time WDC when it's wet out and no amount of hemming and hawing or whataboutism thrown into the discussion changes that.

Q2?

Driver/Lap Time/Time of the Day
Vettel/1:28.636/15:28:17
Sainz/1:30.771/15:30:21
Max/1:31.178/15:30:46
Lewis/1:31.242/15:30:31
Gasly/1:31.286/15:30:39
Bottas/1:32.081/15:30:52
Hartley/1:32.590/15:30:58

Of all the drivers who finished their lap between 15:30:20 and 15:30:60 when it was pouring, Max clocked the best lap. Although Lewis also came out along with Vettel almost at the same time, but by then the strategic error was committed as Lewis was on US and Vettel came out with inters, at a time when a good part of the circuit was wet and was about to rain. Ferrari got it right with Vettel, but wrong with Kimi.

I agree 100% with what you said. Would you agree with me that it was Ferrari that made mistakes in q3, although those were not as big as Mercedes's in q2.

[Just_a_fan]

Which could mean, that the car he had in all this races is very good in rain. I don't say that that is the case but in this discussion you people leave out the most possible solutions because it suits your favorite driver. If you have a neutral look on things there always are multiple explanations and the better car is even more possible than the theory that Hamilton is so much better in rain than every other driver. I think it is a mix of all that. Verstappen on Saturday showed that "a god in rain" (not from me, from some people here and the media) fails if the car is not good in rain or mixed conditions. It's all about the mix car and driver where the car has more of the part.

If the excellent wet performances are all in one season with the same car, then yes, one could/should argue that the car is the deciding factor. If the excellent wet performances are across several seasons (and indeed more than one team) then the most likely answer is that the driver is excellent in the wet. If there is one unchanged variable amongst a number of changed variables and the result is the same, then the unchanged variable is likely the reason for the result. In this case, the driver is the one unchanged variable. The car is one of the changed variables.

[sosic2121]

Q2?

This is a really poor argument! The only thing that maters with regards to Q2 is getting a lap in that's good enough to get you into Q3 without abusing the tires to much.

First, that applys for pretty much any other Q1&Q2 (like last week in Germany), but that is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make.

Second
"this is a very circular argument at the moment, a better driver will lessen the impact of a wrong tire, a few minutes extra of rain.

In the end one 4 time WDC has results that far exceed the results of the other 4 time WDC when it's wet out and no amount of hemming and hawing or whataboutism thrown into the discussion changes that."
Tires and rain matters no matter who is driving.
In Q2 ham and vet had same tires, but different, last week they had same track but different tires and FW.