2018 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 27-29 July

[Singabule]

So many evidence guys, squating, less shaking while attacking curbs, high tyre degradation in one side only, great low speed corner, never have broken suspension while attacking a baguette, etc.

[flynfrog]

Your favorite driver sucks. lets get over the nonsense and discuss the race

[Andres125sx]

The Ferrari has more downforce than the Mercedes, the RedBull has too (according to everyone). So how does that square with your argument? Of course downforce is important because it still gives the grip but on a wet track where aquaplaning is an issue, where the grip levels change constantly, the driver's feel for the car is what enables the lap time to be extracted.

Yes and no. Problem arrises when people try to make absolute statements. As we both said in the wet driver feeling is a lot more important, but that is still less crucial than the car he's driving.

Hamilton on a Renault will never make a pole in the wet, period. The car, even in wet conditions, is still what makes the difference. Then when two cars are close enough in performance drivers will make the difference, but only if cars are close enough.

I'd say if in dry condition car is 80% and driver 20%, in wet conditions car may be 60% and driver 40%, drivers are a lot more relevant, but cars are still more important than drivers

When we compare Mercedes and Ferrari for example, cars are close enough in performance so drivers can make a difference tough

You’re getting too hung up on outright performance. Of course Hamilton is up there with the very best, just look at his record. What is most impressive is his consistency and lack of mistakes. If he won the last three wet races you could talk about luck, to win the last 9, over a period of 4 years. Shows a tremendous amount of consistency and lack of mistakes which is what makes someone one of the greats. You’ve got to look at the bigger picture and all the mistakes other so called greats made in the rain. Senna, Schumacher, Vettel, not one of them has had a string of wins in the rain like it. Schumacher had the most dominant of cars for a few years at Ferrari and no challenge from his teammates and where does his record stand for consequetive wet wins? You can have your opinions but facts also speak volumes.

Read carefully please, I never said a word about lewis, only explaining that even in the rain, the car is still a higher percentage than the driver because DF is DF, and no driver can increase his car grip

Then when two cars provide similar DF drivers will make the difference (Hamilton-Vettel) but if that´s not the case, drivers can´t do magic.

[Jolle]

Yes and no. Problem arrises when people try to make absolute statements. As we both said in the wet driver feeling is a lot more important, but that is still less crucial than the car he's driving.

Hamilton on a Renault will never make a pole in the wet, period. The car, even in wet conditions, is still what makes the difference. Then when two cars are close enough in performance drivers will make the difference, but only if cars are close enough.

I'd say if in dry condition car is 80% and driver 20%, in wet conditions car may be 60% and driver 40%, drivers are a lot more relevant, but cars are still more important than drivers

When we compare Mercedes and Ferrari for example, cars are close enough in performance so drivers can make a difference tough

You’re getting too hung up on outright performance. Of course Hamilton is up there with the very best, just look at his record. What is most impressive is his consistency and lack of mistakes. If he won the last three wet races you could talk about luck, to win the last 9, over a period of 4 years. Shows a tremendous amount of consistency and lack of mistakes which is what makes someone one of the greats. You’ve got to look at the bigger picture and all the mistakes other so called greats made in the rain. Senna, Schumacher, Vettel, not one of them has had a string of wins in the rain like it. Schumacher had the most dominant of cars for a few years at Ferrari and no challenge from his teammates and where does his record stand for consequetive wet wins? You can have your opinions but facts also speak volumes.

Read carefully please, I never said a word about lewis, only explaining that even in the rain, the car is still a higher percentage than the driver because DF is DF, and no driver can increase his car grip

Then when two cars provide similar DF drivers will make the difference (Hamilton-Vettel) but if that´s not the case, drivers can´t do magic.

In the dry the drivers are within tenths of each other, with a good flow in the rain it can be seconds. But the same goes for the cars. One that doesn’t work in the rain, can cost you seconds as well. In the dry a very peaky PU isn’t a big problem but in the wet... and who knows, RedBull might be so on the edge with their rake that when they put the wetts under it, the floor just didn’t work.

[Vasconia]

The pit stop screwed that up for them though. Without losing a second in the stop, we would probably be looking at a very different result.

Vettel himself disagrees with this statement.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13774 ... ton-defeat

Vettel, who went on to finish second after surviving contact while passing the fading Bottas late on, admitted "something didn't go as we planned".

He said: "We lost out and we came out behind, that didn't help.

"Without that it would have been a much more relaxed last part of the race, probably hunting down Lewis.

"But with the gap that he had, I think it would have been difficult to catch - and then it's a completely different story, especially around here to overtake.

"I think we could have done the catching bit, but not really the overtaking.

"In the end it doesn't change much, just that it was a bit more work than coming out ahead."

The Mercedes and Hamilton were very fast in the race. Perhaps Vettel could have reduced the gap but I have my doubts he could have catched Lewis, let alone overtake him.

For me it was clear(during qualy) that the Mercedes work very well on wet because they can heat the tyres. So, if it rains in Spa, for example, they will smash Ferrari.

[Sieper]

Vasconia, that (your last sentence) is literaly exactly what Ho-Pin Tung also said on Dutch TV when he saw that Merc get so much heat (rather too much in different conditions (when the track conditions are hot they get blistering earlier then Ferrari)) in the rear tires he expected them to do very well in qualy as well. An insightful response I feel.

[digitalrurouni]

Vasconia, that (your last sentence) is literaly exactly what Ho-Pin Tung also said on Dutch TV when he saw that Merc get so much heat (rather too much in different conditions (when the track conditions are hot they get blistering earlier then Ferrari)) in the rear tires he expected them to do very well in qualy as well. An insightful response I feel.

Which brings me back to my point that I had earlier asked - why are the Mercs so hard on their tires? Generate heat more? More friction? More energy put in to it? As in not by more weight in the car of course cause that's detrimental. Only thing remaining would then be suspension settings which would mean stiffer suspension than soft. Yet another forum member says because of low rake they run softer settings? I am confused.

[digitalrurouni]

Read carefully please, I never said a word about lewis, only explaining that even in the rain, the car is still a higher percentage than the driver because DF is DF, and no driver can increase his car grip

Then when two cars provide similar DF drivers will make the difference (Hamilton-Vettel) but if that´s not the case, drivers can´t do magic.

Agreed to a point. But Hamilton is usually the better driver than the rest of the field in said conditions regardless of the cars he has driven as he has demonstrated throughout his career. Verstappen and Dani were in the same cars in that race in Brazil and Verstappen was just scything through the cars up the field. Some people just got it.

[Andres125sx]

Read carefully please, I never said a word about lewis, only explaining that even in the rain, the car is still a higher percentage than the driver because DF is DF, and no driver can increase his car grip

Then when two cars provide similar DF drivers will make the difference (Hamilton-Vettel) but if that´s not the case, drivers can´t do magic.

Agreed to a point. But Hamilton is usually the better driver than the rest of the field in said conditions regardless of the cars he has driven as he has demonstrated throughout his career. Verstappen and Dani were in the same cars in that race in Brazil and Verstappen was just scything through the cars up the field. Some people just got it.

No "but" please, I´ve never said the contrary. Why everybody takes "the car is still more important than driver under the rain" as "Hamilton is not good under the rain"? To me only Alonso is comparable under the rain, and now maybe Max, but both of them drive slower cars so he´s no competition under the rain

[Andres125sx]

You’re getting too hung up on outright performance. Of course Hamilton is up there with the very best, just look at his record. What is most impressive is his consistency and lack of mistakes. If he won the last three wet races you could talk about luck, to win the last 9, over a period of 4 years. Shows a tremendous amount of consistency and lack of mistakes which is what makes someone one of the greats. You’ve got to look at the bigger picture and all the mistakes other so called greats made in the rain. Senna, Schumacher, Vettel, not one of them has had a string of wins in the rain like it. Schumacher had the most dominant of cars for a few years at Ferrari and no challenge from his teammates and where does his record stand for consequetive wet wins? You can have your opinions but facts also speak volumes.

Read carefully please, I never said a word about lewis, only explaining that even in the rain, the car is still a higher percentage than the driver because DF is DF, and no driver can increase his car grip

Then when two cars provide similar DF drivers will make the difference (Hamilton-Vettel) but if that´s not the case, drivers can´t do magic.

In the dry the drivers are within tenths of each other, with a good flow in the rain it can be seconds. But the same goes for the cars. One that doesn’t work in the rain, can cost you seconds as well. In the dry a very peaky PU isn’t a big problem but in the wet... and who knows, RedBull might be so on the edge with their rake that when they put the wetts under it, the floor just didn’t work.

I agree I did simplify too much, there are more factors than just DF, for example if they can put the tires on its operating window as Vasconia pointed out. But the point remains the same, even under the rain cars are more relevant than drivers, even if the difference is reduced

[dans79]

Which brings me back to my point that I had earlier asked - why are the Mercs so hard on their tires? Generate heat more? More friction? More energy put in to it? As in not by more weight in the car of course cause that's detrimental. Only thing remaining would then be suspension settings which would mean stiffer suspension than soft. Yet another forum member says because of low rake they run softer settings? I am confused.

They are putting more energy into the tires because they are running a less compliant suspension. Imo, hard and soft are the wrong adjectives, as how the suspension is sprung is but one part of the equation. Merc's aero philosophy requires a more stable platform than the other teams. Thus the suspension is less compliant, and requires the tires to absorb more energy.

[digitalrurouni]

Which brings me back to my point that I had earlier asked - why are the Mercs so hard on their tires? Generate heat more? More friction? More energy put in to it? As in not by more weight in the car of course cause that's detrimental. Only thing remaining would then be suspension settings which would mean stiffer suspension than soft. Yet another forum member says because of low rake they run softer settings? I am confused.

They are putting more energy into the tires because they are running a less compliant suspension. Imo, hard and soft are the wrong adjectives, as how the suspension is sprung is but one part of the equation. Merc's aero philosophy requires a more stable platform than the other teams. Thus the suspension is less compliant, and requires the tires to absorb more energy.

Thanks for the reply. I think I get what you are saying. Fascinating!

[digitalrurouni]

Read carefully please, I never said a word about lewis, only explaining that even in the rain, the car is still a higher percentage than the driver because DF is DF, and no driver can increase his car grip

Then when two cars provide similar DF drivers will make the difference (Hamilton-Vettel) but if that´s not the case, drivers can´t do magic.

Agreed to a point. But Hamilton is usually the better driver than the rest of the field in said conditions regardless of the cars he has driven as he has demonstrated throughout his career. Verstappen and Dani were in the same cars in that race in Brazil and Verstappen was just scything through the cars up the field. Some people just got it.

No "but" please, I´ve never said the contrary. Why everybody takes "the car is still more important than driver under the rain" as "Hamilton is not good under the rain"? To me only Alonso is comparable under the rain, and now maybe Max, but both of them drive slower cars so he´s no competition under the rain

I totally see where you are coming from and I agree with you. What still amazes me and that is the point I am trying to make is - yes throughout his career Hamilton has had better cars than most other people had for one reason than other. However they were all not championship winning cars. And during the times he didn't have championship winning cars he still won races and still drove said cars in the rain and beat other people out. So while yes cars play a bigger factor I think the driver also is a huge factor because he is the one ultimately having to drag the 'sub-par' car around the track to win or to take pole. It's just in my mind Senna and Hamilton have been so good in those tricky conditions that even though I know without the car underneath them they won't be able to do what they are doing it just seems like they are able to make the car do what the car wasn't even possible of doing lol. Make sense what I mean?

[NYGIANTS]

So many evidence guys, squating, less shaking while attacking curbs, high tyre degradation in one side only, great low speed corner, never have broken suspension while attacking a baguette, etc.

Peter Windsor as to why Ferrari and Redbull struggled in qualifying.

https://youtu.be/9VCJ2o5x8vQ

[zac510]

I'm a bit late to this thread, I apologise, but in both breakdowns during the race on Sunday they called a VSC. I had the feeling that in the past both of these might just have been double waved yellows.
I'm curious as to whether the VSC will be favoured over a double-waved yellow in the future, or whether this was just a coincidence.