2018 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, 27-29 July

[Andres125sx]

Pointless speculation about which car is better in the wet.
Hamilton was just, as usual, on another level in the rain. Simple. no tyre explanation needed.
Also i smile when i see the argument about the car is X% and driver is Y%. This argument works fine when talking about a Dry track and a car driving to its limit, but it doesn't hold at all when it's pouring rain on the track.

A lap can have 20 corners, where two different, but equal cars in every way, can take 18 corners at the same exact pace, but then there are those those 2 pesky and slippery corners where one driver is not going to lose any time driving through it, and the other is going to slip and slide, and decide to back off going through it and subsequently lose 2 seconds over the lap in those two corners. This scenario tosses out that "the driver cannot do more than the car can give" argument.
This is where you see Hamilton smashing out those ridiculous pole lap gaps by 2 and 3 seconds; it has nothing to do with car advantage. He is simply keeping up the pace in the wetter sections of the track where others are backing off or driving the wrong line because they aren't as sure or confident to deal with reacting to the uncertainty of the wet.

I think this is a good example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifvbapD8B2Q

So you smile when reading estimated % wich, as stated, are only posted to clarify my point of view... but then state some F1 drivers loose 2-3 seconds on two wet corners?

Ok if you mean Massa I´ll agree, but he´s out of F1 now

[Vasconia]

Toni Cuquerella said on spanish TV Mercedes heat up tires so fast they don´t even use heating blankets ( is that the name in english?) for the rear tires, and that obviously is a huge advantage in wet conditions

Aha! Toni Cuquerella of Spanish TV has to be the source of all the false rumours then, or was it a comedy show?

Probably you don´t know, but he´s a former HRT, BMW and Ferrari F1 teams engineer, so if I have to choose between your opinion and his...

Maybe he was not literal, maybe they use them but for a much shorter period, maybe they only stop using them on hot days and tracks.... who knows, but you can be sure he never talk BS so there must be something there, wich is an unquestionable evidence Mercedes put his rear tires on temperature much easier than any other team

Actually I consider him the most reliable F1 source you can find on a TV by a good margin, he´s not a journalist, he´s an experienced F1 engineer

He has mentioned this several times and I believe its 100% true.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Toni Cuquerella said on spanish TV Mercedes heat up tires so fast they don´t even use heating blankets ( is that the name in english?) for the rear tires, and that obviously is a huge advantage in wet conditions

Aha! Toni Cuquerella of Spanish TV has to be the source of all the false rumours then, or was it a comedy show?

Probably you don´t know, but he´s a former HRT, BMW and Ferrari F1 teams engineer, so if I have to choose between your opinion and his...

Maybe he was not literal, maybe they use them but for a much shorter period, maybe they only stop using them on hot days and tracks.... who knows, but you can be sure he never talk BS so there must be something there, wich is an unquestionable evidence Mercedes put his rear tires on temperature much easier than any other team

Actually I consider him the most reliable F1 source you can find on a TV by a good margin, he´s not a journalist, he´s an experienced F1 engineer

With the exception of Austria and Canada (with HS), there isn't a race where Mercedes struggled on RACE day with tire issues. Their issues are more in qualifying, where they have not managed to maintain optimum temperature in all four tyres. Specifically, their tire issues are more obvious on HS and US, but their car is much more happy on SS and S wherever those compounds were available. On race day, they generally have a better car.
Hamilton thinks the same.

Addressing that race performance, Hamilton said: "For some reason the race is really our main strength.
"The current work and focus is making sure we improve in qualifying.
"We've had five poles out of 12 races, which is good but could be better.
"That's where we need to hit it with these guys because I think in the race we can generally hold our own."

If Mercedes manages to put the heat on faster, it can't explain how they keep the tires working IN THE WINDOW for the whole of the race AND not destroy them with additional 100kg of fuel on board, while Ferrari seems to have had problems in managing tires in Silverstone and Hockenheim, where Vettel was nursing the blisters! Do they have some clever piece of technology there? Most likely no.

So, I haven't found any explanation of what is the W09's problem on HS and US in qualifying, while it works well on all other compounds, including Intermediates and Full Wet.

Ferrari has a great car and Hamilton would have certainly put the SF71-H on pole in Hungary in the wet. With that, it is BS to say W09 is better in wet than SF71-H.

[marvin78]

But as always that's only your opinion like it's the opinion of others here that the W0x is/was better in the wet. If you all look at this like that, this "discussion" can be put in bed as neither of you has enough real facts to say that his opinion is not "BS".

[Phil]

So, I haven't found any explanation of what is the W09's problem on HS and US in qualifying, while it works well on all other compounds, including Intermediates and Full Wet.

From what I understand, the Mercedes puts a lot of energy into the rear tires especially. On most circuits where there are long straights between the corners, it allows them to manage the heat better (on straights, the tires cool down). On some tracks though like Hungary (in the dry), that however is not possible and the rears overheat which then cause loss of grip and sliding.

Obviously, this effect is exaggerated on some of the Pirelli compounds due to the performance, grip levels/surface, surface temperature and temperature working range of the tire.

In the most basic terms, if the Mercedes would try to push the limit for the entirety of the track, the grip loss would be larger towards the end of the track when the tires are too hot. Some of it can be overcome by managing the tires better, e.g. less aggressive at the beginning of the track to have better grip at the end. Obviously, how much lap times are affected depends on the layout of the track, how many corners (and how much energy goes into the tires), how many straights there are inbetween them to cool them down again (and how much), track surface, surface temperature and of course which Pirelli tire is being used. Overall, I think the general opinion is, is that the Ferrari is less rear limited [than the Mercedes]. On front-limited tracks, the Mercedes is less limited.

During the race, more management takes place, so the temperature can be managed better.

There's also the point that the Mercedes has worse traction because of a stiffer suspension, so is more vulnerable on slow corners where additional sliding and loss of traction puts in a lot of heat into the rears.

[PlatinumZealot]

Kimi sad Ferrari was good for an easy pole. And when kimi says a car is good i believe him!

[marvin78]

And everyone believes what makes his case. I don't even know if he meant in wet or in the dry. I think this discussion has no end because no one can really accept the arguments of the other party. And that's because it's all filled with blanks and bias everywhere.

[Phil]

No offense marvin, but if you have no clue what Kimi said, maybe you should go read up on it. Seems to me you are just discussing for the sake of discussing. I'll give you a tip; It was in the post qualifying press conference and it was pretty clear what he was saying and what he meant.

[marvin78]

I did not look it up because it is not important. But I figured that it was after the Quali.

But your post is exactly the type of post that make this forums so bad in the last months. You pick a part without any context, rip it apart and ignore the rest.

My opinion to the matter is: You all don't know what's the real deal here. That is ok if you all you would not pretend to know it all. This are all just opinions. Even that is ok in a discussion but if someone calls the opinion of another one BS even if he himself does not present facts and just another biased opinion, that ist just bad.

[GrandAxe]

Toni Cuquerella said on spanish TV Mercedes heat up tires so fast they don´t even use heating blankets ( is that the name in english?) for the rear tires, and that obviously is a huge advantage in wet conditions

Aha! Toni Cuquerella of Spanish TV has to be the source of all the false rumours then, or was it a comedy show?

Probably you don´t know, but he´s a former HRT, BMW and Ferrari F1 teams engineer, so if I have to choose between your opinion and his...

Maybe he was not literal, maybe they use them but for a much shorter period, maybe they only stop using them on hot days and tracks.... who knows, but you can be sure he never talk BS so there must be something there, wich is an unquestionable evidence Mercedes put his rear tires on temperature much easier than any other team

Actually I consider him the most reliable F1 source you can find on a TV by a good margin, he´s not a journalist, he´s an experienced F1 engineer

Don't you see Mercedes with your own two eyes, both on the starting grid and in the garage, with tyre blankets on (front and rear)? Toni Cuquerella's tale is something you and I can verify to be false pretty sharply. So, why should some ex-engineer tell you otherwise and you believe?

It is an absolutely ridiculous claim Toni Cuquerella made; perhaps he is no longer in F1 (or engineering) and has switched 360 degrees to journalism for good reason.

[Andres125sx]

Aha! Toni Cuquerella of Spanish TV has to be the source of all the false rumours then, or was it a comedy show?

Probably you don´t know, but he´s a former HRT, BMW and Ferrari F1 teams engineer, so if I have to choose between your opinion and his...

Maybe he was not literal, maybe they use them but for a much shorter period, maybe they only stop using them on hot days and tracks.... who knows, but you can be sure he never talk BS so there must be something there, wich is an unquestionable evidence Mercedes put his rear tires on temperature much easier than any other team

Actually I consider him the most reliable F1 source you can find on a TV by a good margin, he´s not a journalist, he´s an experienced F1 engineer

Don't you see Mercedes with your own two eyes, both on the starting grid and in the garage, with tyre blankets on (front and rear)? Toni Cuquerella's tale is something you and I can verify to be false pretty sharply. So, why should some ex-engineer tell you otherwise and you believe?

It is an absolutely ridiculous claim Toni Cuquerella made; perhaps he is no longer in F1 (or engineering) and has switched 360 degrees to journalism for good reason.

Yeah you surely know better than a former Ferrari engineer, period

[Andres125sx]

If Mercedes manages to put the heat on faster, it can't explain how they keep the tires working IN THE WINDOW for the whole of the race AND not destroy them with additional 100kg of fuel on board

You can´t explain, but it is fairly easy. In the race they need to take care of the tires so they last the whole stint, wich usually is 1/4 to 1/3 of the race distance wich is a lot of laps, and also the energy strategy is completely different, instead of a charging lap to deploy all the energy in the next fast lap as they do in qualy, they can´t deploy as much energy because they can´t start next lap with an empty battery. That´s the reason Alonso managed to make a fast lap at some GP, he was out of points so he didn´t care about the fastest overal strategy and did a qualy lap deplying all the energy.

In race trim their laptimes are 2-3 seconds slower than in qualy, and that´s at the end of the race with an empty tank, when they´re carrying 100kg of fuel their laptimes are 5-6 seconds slower wich is more than enough to avoid any overheating

[dans79]

Yeah you surely know better than a former Ferrari engineer, period

Just because he is a former Ferrari engineer, doesn't mean he isn't now a click bait writing moron. Honestly anyone with working eye-balls can tell he is full of it.

[strad]

Thought I would pull up the race and see what I could see.
I already deleted the grid walk so I can't speak to anything before when they lined up on the grid before the formation lap. BUT at that point they had blankets on the fronts but none on the rears of either Mercedes.
Hadn't noticed before this heated discussion.
Like I say, I cannot speak to anything before on the grid before the formation lap. Every other car I saw had them all the way around.

[maxxer]

Seems ferrari with the 2 batteries have some sort of traction control on the rear wheel ....