US lite truck industry literally breaking down

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Conceptual
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Re: US lite truck industry literally breaking down

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flynfrog wrote:
donskar wrote:Yes, flynfrog, Texas is truck country. The F150 has been the best selling vehicle in the US for a long time, just recently beaten out by Toyota Camry and Corolla.

Little known fact: the only pickup built in the USA is the Toyota Tundra (built in Texas, Indiana, Kentucky and Alabama).
I knew that.

I tired to explain this to some one at the Daytona 500 who was ranting about Toyota being in nascar I gave up :D
You are lucky that they didn't run you off.

DaveKillens
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Re: US truck industry literally breaking down

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But anyways, I recall reading about five years ago that Detroit was raking profits from their top-end cars and trucks. People bought trucks, they could make tham and sell them at a good profit. But now, all of a sudden, gas-gizzlers are not wanted anymore. Detroit just cannot learn as long as their sole focus is to give shareholders as much as possible at the annual meeting, and ignoring investing (seriously and sincerely) in future technologies and trends.
Last edited by DaveKillens on 27 Jun 2008, 19:19, edited 1 time in total.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

Conceptual
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Re: US truck industry literally breaking down

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DaveKillens wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:
Ray wrote:.. That's a real asshole statement to make. Prick comments like that make me want to punch assholes like you in the face when they say "well I drive a fuel efficient car." ...
[-X
With that sort of comment, Ray has nothing to say that is of interest to me. You spout garbage, people look at you as if you are trash. Which is true.

But anyways, I recall reading about five years ago that Detroit was raking profits from their top-end cars and trucks. People bought trucks, they could make tham and sell them at a good profit. But now, all of a sudden, gas-gizzlers are not wanted anymore. Detroit just cannot learn as long as their sole focus is to give shareholders as much as possible at the annual meeting, and ignoring investing (seriously and sincerely) in future technologies and trends.

I watched 2 extraordinary CEO's get fired from Radio Shack for following your advice. They were all about turn around, but building a solid launch platform instead of trying to steer the behemoth, but that cost money, and the board didn't like that.

Unfortunately, Claire Babrowski was the one that had the vision that would have taken RS back into the $45/share range (from $17/share) but they canned her after like 11 months, at the expense of $15M, and then changed course to belt tightening and employee benefits cutting with Julian Day.

It is symptomatic of a system that values profit above quality and even safety. The shareholders dont care where the money comes from, they just want it, RIGHT NOW!

Anyways...........

Detroit just needs to evolve its business structures, as well as its technology. There are so many options at this point, that the most profitable item needs to take a back seat to the most purchasable item, and that is a higher efficiency machine. I learned one thing at Radio Shack, and that is that people WILL SPEND MONEY as long as they know they are getting the "Biggest bang for their buck, that doesn't cost alot to maintain."

That should be the focal point, because then you can beat foreign competition honestly and honorably.

Chris

Belatti
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Re: US truck industry literally breaking down

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Ray wrote:Prick comments like that make me want to punch assholes like you in the face when they say "well I drive a fuel efficient car." So what? I like having a truck, you don't. So the fact I have a bigger vehicle means it's humorous to watch me getting --- over at a gas station? .
Of course it is! You like having a truck? Then pay for it! I would like to have a Ferrari V12, I can´t afford it, but if I could, I would not complain about how much I spend feeding 12 cylinders, it´s ridiculous!
Ray wrote: It's sad when a mother of two, a friend of mine, can't afford a vehicle that gets decent mileage because she can't afford one and has a bigger vehicle because of her two kids, diapers and baby food prices are through the roof, and her whole family has to suffer because some asswipe is pissing this country down the drain. She can't afford gas at $4 a gallon for long, she has to drive them to a baby sitter, who she can barely afford, she has to drive about 25 miles to work one way to get to work, and work ten hours a day just to make ends meet. That's WITH a working husband. All the while --- crackheads and drug addicts get handouts every day in big cities. --- those people, hard working families suffer everyday working their collective fingers to the bone, and those complete wastes of human life get a free ride. People like you make me sick, gas prices don't just affect people with trucks or SUV's, they effect everybody...
And it goes on and on... :roll:

So this is your perspective? Well, try to look at things under a different light, for once, just curiosity at least...

1 liter range cars doesn´t exist in the US? Or are that expensive? How much worth a 20 years old car with a 1.4 liter, even with carburetor? I had one and mileage was as good as 38mpg...

So, That "poor" lady can´t afford a 5 liter SUV? What a pity for her!! :cry:
Because families can fit in smaller vehicles:

Image

Now, that may be a joke, but this is not:

Image

This is what I call "GREEN" mobility, although often it became "RED" (if you know what I mean)
That pic is from the "San Martin" train, from Pilar (my town) to Buenos Aires. I used to ride in those stirrups to get to work, everyday for 3 years because I couldn´t afford a car. And I never complaint. Then I bought a 1.4 liter 20 year old FIAT, with enough place for 5 grown up persons (or a Family :wink: ). A 35+mpg mileage piece of crap as cheap as USD 3.000. And don´t you dare to talk about FIAT "reliability" because in that car I travalled all arround my country!

Try to understand this, my friend Ray, that I´m not trying to "level down" things here, but only make you notice that America has been "Wonderland" for many many years and it seems that those habits are not sustentable anymore.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

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flynfrog
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Re: US truck industry literally breaking down

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Ray wrote:
flynfrog wrote:To be honest in only makes me smile.

I see so many people driving a truck for the sake of driving a big truck.
Now they cant afford fuel :lol: so they cry to the government to lower fuel costs. To be honest the fuel costs don't bother me much.
What about high food prices? Would you laugh then because you choose to eat one thing over another? Should people who are taller, or more muscular than you pay for more because they are bigger and choose to eat more because they like to eat? That's a real asshole statement to make. Prick comments like that make me want to punch assholes like you in the face when they say "well I drive a fuel efficient car." So what? I like having a truck, you don't. So the fact I have a bigger vehicle means it's humorous to watch me getting --- over at a gas station?
...
:lol: My car isn't that fuel efficient 25mpg. And I have owned a truck and an SUV and yes I do find it funny when you complain about gas prices. My car has to burn premium you never heard me complain how much more premium cost over 87 did you? Your food argument doesn't make much sense If I spent all of my money on Prime rib vs buying hamburger should they lower the price of prime rib because Thats what I want?

Your friend with 2 kids needs a huge vehicle why? When I was growing up my sister and I fit fine in a 2dr car last I check they had 4-6 seats in them.

Conceptual
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Re: US lite truck industry literally breaking down

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The American Media made SUV's what they are today, and that is worthless.

The cool factor has too much of am impact on todays Americans, and the suffering that comes of it is rather deserving.

I have a wife and 4 children, so I had a decision to make... SUV or mini-van. Both seat my 6 person family, but we went with the Dodge Caravan with the 2.5L Turbo.

I do not know the gas mileage off the top of my head, but it takes $60 to fill from empty, but that is like 3 weeks worth of driving for me. My wife drives a Chevy Cavalier, 2.2L NA, and she gets worse mileage than my mini-van.

There are ALOT of these vehicles out there, but what I see from my local Paper Shop (auto magazine) is that it isnt that people WONT trade down their SUV as much as NO-ONE will BUY their SUV and give them the money necessary to buy a more efficient vehicle.

No lie. There was a 1999 Mercedes Benz 740 in that Paper Shop a few months ago for $500. When I called and asked if it was a typo, the guy said that it was correct, but no one would buy it because of the fuel usage.

Its crazy, but don't blame the price of gasoline or the price of diapers, blame the Americans for not paying attention to the state of our government and registering to vote.

THAT is where their issue lies.

Chris

DaveKillens
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Re: US lite truck industry literally breaking down

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On the eve of Canada's anniversary, here's some self-depreciating humor. Sometimes ya gotta laugh.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6uh5KbIOmQg&feature=related
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

riff_raff
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Re: US lite truck industry literally breaking down

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All US truck sales are hurting, both domestic and foreign. The truth is the larger Japanese truck sales (Toyota Tundra and Nissan Titan) are hurting worse than the domestics.

I live in southern California and drive a 5 year old Chevy 1/2 ton p/u with a 5.7L V8. Sadly, I'm told it was assembled in Canada.

I dealt with the recent high gas prices here by moving about 1-1/2 miles from my office. It costs me about $90US to fill up my gas tank, but I only have to do it about once a month. I'm one of the few people left that I know that still has a real truck, and all of my family and friends that traded down to little fuel-sipping, econo-boxes now pester me every time they need to tow or move something. Of course, I make them pay dearly.

My truck is paid for and only has about 65K miles on it. It's in showroom condition and should last me at least another 10 years (even with its Canadian built quality).

I personally see lots of benefits from the recent high gas prices here. There are significantly fewer drivers on the road, and most importantly, my Exxon-Mobil and ConnocoPhillips stocks are way up in price and paying huge dividends!
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A: Start with a large one!"

Cyco
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Re: US lite truck industry literally breaking down

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riff raff, if you only live 1.5miles from work, why drive at all? Riding a bike would be even faster and cheaper.

mx_tifoso
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Re: US lite truck industry literally breaking down

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riff_raff wrote:I live in southern California and drive a 5 year old Chevy 1/2 ton p/u with a 5.7L V8.
If it is a five year old (2003) Silverado halfton, it should either have a 4.8 or 5.3 litre as a V8 engine, or possibly a 6.0 if it is a heavy duty or SS version (HO).

This specific chassis (GMT800) was introduced as a '99 model year and ran until '06. Engine choices were left alone, 4.3L V6, 4.8L and 5.3L V8's, along with the optional heavy duty or high-output 6.0L V8. Surprisingly these engines still serve duty in the new GMT900 chassis, albeit with higher output and a few updates here and there.

Fuel milage isn't as bad as expected by people who don't know anything about them, mine has the 5.3 and gets decent mileage. It all depends on how you drive them really, but realistic expectancies should always be in hand. Although more gears than the current four would offer an improvement in fuel consumption, six speed 'boxes are expected on the GMT900 pickups within a few years.

I proudly drive a Silverado, and so does my father. And BTW, yes, we do use them for work as they should be used. Both here at home, and in Mexico when we have to do some work at our house or fencing our pasteaderos. Take a look at the cargo bed, along with the tough bedliner, and you won't be disappointed.

I agree, 'riff_raff', you should bike to work if it's that close, if not during the summer, through fall until spring. Along with not polluting, you would save even more money and benefit from the cardio too!
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donskar
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Re: US lite truck industry literally breaking down

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I work at a Toyota dealership, so I am biased, but also have something of an inside view. Here are some snippets for thought:

The Toyota Tundra is the only full-size pickup sold in America that is also built in America. The only one.

About 70% of Americans are driving a vehicle that is worth more than they owe. 70% are "upside-down" (negative equity).

GMC/Chevy/Ford/Dodge pickups depreciated 25.7% over the last 12 months. Toyota Tundras depreciated 23.5% over the same period.

Anecdotally - MANY Americans are trying to trade in their domestic pickups and large SUVs for small Toyotas. Most cannot do so because the trade-in value of their big gas hogs is so far below what they owe. Ford F150s are most commonly seen among pickup trades. Chevy Suburbans are the most common SUVs.
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Ciro Pabón
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Re: US lite truck industry literally breaking down

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What do you mean the Tundra is the only one full pick-up built in US? I know factories for F-150 in Kansas City, Mo and Dearnborn, Mi. I imagine donskar has a reason for saying that (he's an expert) but I want to know it.

Truck industry breaking down... well, what do we know about trucks in US?

I imagine that you have to have a pickup if you have to pick up something, like riff raff explains. They're not for me, the cabin is really small and I'm an urban guy.

I know that the first pickup was the ambulance made by Dodge Brothers during WWI.

Dodge Brothers ambulance. 212 cubic inches of pure power: 35 hp
Image

Although people asked for a model for the public, Dodge took some time to sell this, the famous Dodge Brothers UA-1, known as the Screenside. It was built since 1917, here you have the 1930 model:

Image

And this is the 1917 model:

Dodge Brothers UA1, 1917, the granddad-saurius of all pickups
Image

I also know that the Ford F-150 is the most sold car in the world. Here you have some figures of how well SUVs sell (monthly figures):

April 2004: 71,040

April 2005: 59,914

April 2006: 47,363

April 2007: 59,297

As you can easily see, that's not a new trend. The figures went down years ago.

For example:

GM, July 2007: 524,218 light vehicles sold
GM, July 2008: 406,298 light vehicles sold

Ford, July 2007: 366,548 vehicles, total
Ford, July 2008: 241,339 vehicles, total

Ford, F-150, July 2007: 126,905 trucks
Ford, F-150, July 2008: 68,982 trucks

However, the sales of F-150 a year ago were the best month of sales for any vehicle in the modern era (discounting the Model T).

I predict that true pickups will stay. SUVs and their horrible fenders and body styles will disappear (please, God, I beg you).
Ciro

Carlos
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Re: US lite truck industry literally breaking down

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Don't be downhearted about your truck riff_raff. :D It sounds like a GM assembled at Oshawa Ontario Canada. That plant's quality has always been well rated. It should last at least 10 years maybe 15 :D

A quote from the Toronto Star June 2008 about current product and quality:

"The General Motors truck plant in Oshawa that it plans to close next year, produces the highest quality large pickups in North and South America, according to a leading industry study.
J.D. Power and Associates revealed yesterday in its annual study of initial quality that the Oshawa plant posted the fewest problems among full-size pickup operations in its assembly of the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra models.
Furthermore, J.D. Power noted the GM Oshawa plant finished in the top 10 operations for quality among 71 assembly facilities on the two continents."


Cyco, mx_tifosi a bike isn't always the best thing or the safest. I was side
swiped last year on my bike, by a pickup truck, a lot of city drivers here don't share the road.

donskar: I agree depreciation is drastic these days, a report on NPR (for what it's worth) noted an appraisal on a 2007 Caddy Escalade that cost $71,000 The owner hoped for $53,000 but was offered a lot less, they claimed $31,000.

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Ted68
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Re: US lite truck industry literally breaking down

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DETROIT - General Motors Corp. said Tuesday it will lay off salaried workers, cut truck production, suspend its dividend and borrow $2 billion to $3 billion to weather a severe downturn in the U.S. market.

GM said the moves will raise $15 billion to help cover losses and turn around its North American operations.

"In short, our plan is not a plan to survive. It is a plan to win," GM Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner said in a broadcast to employees.

Chief Operating Officer Fritz Henderson said GM wants to reduce its total salaried costs in the U.S. and Canada by 20 percent.

A large chunk of the reduction, he said, would come from cutting health care benefits for salaried retirees. Those people would get a pension increase from the company's overfunded pension fund to help compensate for Medicare and supplemental insurance, the company said.

Several thousand jobs will be cut through normal attrition and retirements, and through early retirement and buyout offers, Henderson said. The company could resort to involuntary layoffs but does not want to, he said.

GM has 40,000 salaried employees in the U.S. and Canada.

Henderson said the company intends to reduce its truck production capacity by 300,000 units, 150,000 more than it announced at its annual meeting in June.

The company will speed up closures of its truck and sport utility vehicle factories in Janesville, Wis.; Oshawa, Ontario; Silao, Mexico; and Moraine, Ohio, and it will make thousands of job cuts at other truck assembly and parts factories, Henderson said.

He would not say if further plants will be closed, and said the company still must negotiate further cuts with the United Auto Workers.

GM said it will suspend its $1 annual dividend immediately, which will improve liquidity by $800 million through 2009. It's the first time the company has suspended its dividend since 1922.

The company also plans to raise $2 billion to $4 billion through the sale of assets, including its Hummer brand. It also plans to borrow $2 billion to $3 billion by pledging assets including stock of foreign subsidiaries, brands, stake in its finance arm and real estate.

GM and other auto companies have been hammered by high gas prices, the weak economy and a rapid shift in consumer tastes away from trucks and SUVs. GM's sales were down 16 percent in the first six months of this year, led by a 21 percent decline in truck sales.

GM is forecasting total U.S. sales of 14.7 million this year. That's down from 17 million as recently as 2005.

Just six weeks ago, GM said it would close the four truck and SUV plants and boost production of the smaller, more fuel-efficient cars that customers are demanding. It also announced production of a new car that could get 45 miles to the gallon and would go on sale in 2010.

But for an impatient Wall Street, those changes weren't enough, and the company's shares have hit a series of 50-year lows since July 2.

Analysts had speculated GM would need to raise more cash to get it to 2010, when it will start seeing the savings from its landmark 2007 contract with the United Auto Workers that cut hourly workers' wages and transferred billions in hourly retiree health care obligations to a union-led trust.

As part of its financing plan, GM will defer $1.7 billion in payments to that trust that had been scheduled for this year and next.

Some analysts have also speculated that GM would declare bankruptcy, but Wagoner said last week that bankruptcy isn't a consideration.

___

On the Net:

General Motors Corp.: http://www.gm.com

Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
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G-Rock
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Re: US lite truck industry literally breaking down

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Donskar wrote:
I work at a Toyota dealership, so I am biased, but also have something of an inside view. Here are some snippets for thought:

The Toyota Tundra is the only full-size pickup sold in America that is also built in America. The only one.

About 70% of Americans are driving a vehicle that is worth more than they owe. 70% are "upside-down" (negative equity).

GMC/Chevy/Ford/Dodge pickups depreciated 25.7% over the last 12 months. Toyota Tundras depreciated 23.5% over the same period.

Anecdotally - MANY Americans are trying to trade in their domestic pickups and large SUVs for small Toyotas. Most cannot do so because the trade-in value of their big gas hogs is so far below what they owe. Ford F150s are most commonly seen among pickup trades. Chevy Suburbans are the most common SUVs.
I think that if you are a truck owner who wants to trade in his/her truck for a small fuel efficient car, I hope you do the math.
It's still cheaper to keep driving a vehicle that does say, 18mpg and drive it into the ground than it does to take a hit on trade in and go for a smaller car that gets say 35 mpg.
The only case where one can make a dollar for dollar gain on fuel economy is to trade in your 2006 F-150 worth $15000 for a 1998 Dodge Neon for $2000 and hope it won't cost an arm and a leg in repair bills.
I think if they get cheap enough people will keep picking up nice used trucks and SUV's and be willing to take a hit on fuel economy.

In any case the big three screwed up again (after making great strides in quality and image) because they didn't move fast enough and maybe had false hope that the war in Iraq would keep oil prices down.
In the meantime, bring on the small trucks with four cylinder diesels! I'm still holding on to my 78 GMC stepside until that happens here in Canada.
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