2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Remember the multi 2-1 incident, Webber made a comment about not expecting much to come out of it, he said Seb will get protection. It's pretty clear as day that Christian isn't remotely in charge at Red Bull, it's Marko. Christian came on the radio during that incident saying Seb, this is silly, but he still didn't obey the order.

Was Webber crucified for what he did to Vettel in Brazil 2012? It was the last race of championship and the team had clearly discussed with Webber to help Vettel whenever the situation arises in the race as Webber was not in contention for the championship anymore. But instead, he chose to squeeze Vettel to the pit wall and overtook him at the start. That pissed the entire management.
Multi 2-1 was payback.

Maybe in Webber's mind Brazil 2012 was payback for Istanbul 2010, or Silverstone front wing-gate, or Abu Dhabi 2010 Championship decider.

By 2012, it had dawned upon Webber that, he was simply too slow to match Vettel and he just wanted to spoil the game in Brazil. 15-3 on pole record in 2011 was simply humiliating, while the only other non RB driver to get a pole was Hamilton and that too, only once. It was just a sour driver, unable to beat his faster team mate.

That is the situation with Ricciardo currently, who is unable to beat Max in qualifying, which determines who the faster driver is. If RB14 was as dominant as RB7 was, then the results would have been more or less similar to 2011 and I say this because Max gets out of the line faster on starts, than Ricciardo. So if he is on pole and gets away, then he would be gone, just like Vettel was in 2011.

Maybe Ricciardo's end game is getting into a Mercedes or Ferrari for 2021? Maybe he believes Red Bull can't win the championship with Honda in 2 years, he may believe they'll be 3rd again. So why not spend the next 2 years with Renault works team, new challenge, new environment etc.

In 2021, Ric would be 32 and there would be Max available on the market too. There would be Hamilton and Vettel free for 2021 and if they get locked in their respective teams, it would be once again same situation as it is for 2019. There would be Mercedes junior drivers like Ocon and George Russell on the horizon. There would be Lando Norris and Leclerc alongside. If Hulk manages to beat Ric in qualifying, then it would be game over for Ric.

[adrianjordan]

Was Webber crucified for what he did to Vettel in Brazil 2012? It was the last race of championship and the team had clearly discussed with Webber to help Vettel whenever the situation arises in the race as Webber was not in contention for the championship anymore. But instead, he chose to squeeze Vettel to the pit wall and overtook him at the start. That pissed the entire management.
Multi 2-1 was payback.

Maybe in Webber's mind Brazil 2012 was payback for Istanbul 2010, or Silverstone front wing-gate, or Abu Dhabi 2010 Championship decider.

By 2012, it had dawned upon Webber that, he was simply too slow to match Vettel and he just wanted to spoil the game in Brazil. 15-3 on pole record in 2011 was simply humiliating, while the only other non RB driver to get a pole was Hamilton and that too, only once. It was just a sour driver, unable to beat his faster team mate.

That is the situation with Ricciardo currently, who is unable to beat Max in qualifying, which determines who the faster driver is. If RB14 was as dominant as RB7 was, then the results would have been more or less similar to 2011 and I say this because Max gets out of the line faster on starts, than Ricciardo. So if he is on pole and gets away, then he would be gone, just like Vettel was in 2011.

Maybe Ricciardo's end game is getting into a Mercedes or Ferrari for 2021? Maybe he believes Red Bull can't win the championship with Honda in 2 years, he may believe they'll be 3rd again. So why not spend the next 2 years with Renault works team, new challenge, new environment etc.

In 2021, Ric would be 32 and there would be Max available on the market too. There would be Hamilton and Vettel free for 2021 and if they get locked in their respective teams, it would be once again same situation as it is for 2019. There would be Mercedes junior drivers like Ocon and George Russell on the horizon. There would be Lando Norris and Leclerc alongside. If Hulk manages to beat Ric in qualifying, then it would be game over for Ric.

That's a whole lot of ifs in there...

[sAx]

That's completely at odds with clarification issued in Technical Directive TD/005-18

I wasnt implying the clients don’t get the same engines as their suppliers. I was implying that they couldnt get the ‘best engine’ because the engine suppliers can cherry pick their customers, e.g Redbull that wanted either Ferrari or Mercedes engines but couldnt. And then there is the great big pink elefant in the room, that the suppliers have inherent advantages over their clients by full knowledge of the engines, the [required] packaging, limits and that the engines are designed to cater to their own car before any other considerations are made. A client may get the same engine, but they’ll never have the same intimate knowledge over it. That much should be pretty common-sense.

Lets test that hypothesis then shall we?? Horner said similar in his podcast, that Renault don't give Red Bull the best product (engines), ostensibly of the like they fully pay for and expect to receive a first-class service from. He said if he was in Renault's position he would do exactly the same and as such the excuses for poor performance were all Abiteboul's!! Not a trick question but how many races have Renault won this year against customer Red Bull, using a superior specified product to the like that they supposedly save for those lacking intimate knowledge? Quite a huge elephant in that Red Bull room!

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Maybe in Webber's mind Brazil 2012 was payback for Istanbul 2010, or Silverstone front wing-gate, or Abu Dhabi 2010 Championship decider.

By 2012, it had dawned upon Webber that, he was simply too slow to match Vettel and he just wanted to spoil the game in Brazil. 15-3 on pole record in 2011 was simply humiliating, while the only other non RB driver to get a pole was Hamilton and that too, only once. It was just a sour driver, unable to beat his faster team mate.

That is the situation with Ricciardo currently, who is unable to beat Max in qualifying, which determines who the faster driver is. If RB14 was as dominant as RB7 was, then the results would have been more or less similar to 2011 and I say this because Max gets out of the line faster on starts, than Ricciardo. So if he is on pole and gets away, then he would be gone, just like Vettel was in 2011.

Maybe Ricciardo's end game is getting into a Mercedes or Ferrari for 2021? Maybe he believes Red Bull can't win the championship with Honda in 2 years, he may believe they'll be 3rd again. So why not spend the next 2 years with Renault works team, new challenge, new environment etc.

In 2021, Ric would be 32 and there would be Max available on the market too. There would be Hamilton and Vettel free for 2021 and if they get locked in their respective teams, it would be once again same situation as it is for 2019. There would be Mercedes junior drivers like Ocon and George Russell on the horizon. There would be Lando Norris and Leclerc alongside. If Hulk manages to beat Ric in qualifying, then it would be game over for Ric.

That's a whole lot of ifs in there...

Let me make it simple for you. Ric's stocks have gone southwards, having been beaten by Max and he wouldn't get into Mercedes or Ferrari ever. For the top teams, their alpha need to be a guy who has ultimate one lap pace.

[Ground Effect]

By 2012, it had dawned upon Webber that, he was simply too slow to match Vettel and he just wanted to spoil the game in Brazil. 15-3 on pole record in 2011 was simply humiliating, while the only other non RB driver to get a pole was Hamilton and that too, only once. It was just a sour driver, unable to beat his faster team mate.

That is the situation with Ricciardo currently, who is unable to beat Max in qualifying, which determines who the faster driver is. If RB14 was as dominant as RB7 was, then the results would have been more or less similar to 2011 and I say this because Max gets out of the line faster on starts, than Ricciardo. So if he is on pole and gets away, then he would be gone, just like Vettel was in 2011.

In 2021, Ric would be 32 and there would be Max available on the market too. There would be Hamilton and Vettel free for 2021 and if they get locked in their respective teams, it would be once again same situation as it is for 2019. There would be Mercedes junior drivers like Ocon and George Russell on the horizon. There would be Lando Norris and Leclerc alongside. If Hulk manages to beat Ric in qualifying, then it would be game over for Ric.

That's a whole lot of ifs in there...

Let me make it simple for you. Ric's stocks have gone southwards, having been beaten by Max and he wouldn't get into Mercedes or Ferrari ever. For the top teams, their alpha need to be a guy who has ultimate one lap pace.

So when you say beaten by Max, you mean in qualifying? Because I know Max has yet to finish ahead of Ricciardo in the championship, and he's behind this season as well. Carlos beat Max in qualifying in their debut season, when they were together at Toro Rosso, but Max got the accolades and promotion because of his performance in the races, he finished ahead of Carlos in the championship.
Max certainly has a clear advantage over Ricciardo in qualifying, he also appears to have the edge in overall race pace. But I think for the moment at least, Ricciardo has the better race craft.

[Edax]

So when you say beaten by Max, you mean in qualifying? Because I know Max has yet to finish ahead of Ricciardo in the championship, and he's behind this season as well. Carlos beat Max in qualifying in their debut season, when they were together at Toro Rosso, but Max got the accolades and promotion because of his performance in the races, he finished ahead of Carlos in the championship.
Max certainly has a clear advantage over Ricciardo in qualifying, he also appears to have the edge in overall race pace. But I think for the moment at least, Ricciardo has the better race craft.

I think the question who is better is a nice one to endlessly quabble about amongst fans.

For the teams it is about the driver who extracts the maximum from the cars potential.that is a different question. RB is at the moment not happy about either of the drivers. You talk about Ricciardo having more points than VES. That is true but when you talk to Red bull they would say that both should have more points.

Ricciardo loses points in quali, on (re)starts and on race pace ( especially in the wet). Verstappen in his well documented shenanigans on track. The latter may be more dramatic and visible but both are as real. Take the best finish per race of either Ric or Ver per race and add them up, that is closer to the real potential of the car, and both drivers are pretty far off.

But there could be a hidden aspect. Verstappen and Ricciardo have a completely different driving stile. You can often see them running different setups, different lines etc. Building a car that suits both means a compromise. My suspicion is that RB are taking the car into VES direction which means RIC’s driving is compromised. So Ric’s “lack of pace” (he still is bloody fast) could be magnified by the car characteristics.

I guess that is the main point in wanting to be a number one driver, and the reason for Red bull to feel the need to appoint one. Not the team orders which happen once or twice a year, but getting a tailored car all the races.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

That's a whole lot of ifs in there...

Let me make it simple for you. Ric's stocks have gone southwards, having been beaten by Max and he wouldn't get into Mercedes or Ferrari ever. For the top teams, their alpha need to be a guy who has ultimate one lap pace.

So when you say beaten by Max, you mean in qualifying? Because I know Max has yet to finish ahead of Ricciardo in the championship, and he's behind this season as well. Carlos beat Max in qualifying in their debut season, when they were together at Toro Rosso, but Max got the accolades and promotion because of his performance in the races, he finished ahead of Carlos in the championship.
Max certainly has a clear advantage over Ricciardo in qualifying, he also appears to have the edge in overall race pace. But I think for the moment at least, Ricciardo has the better race craft.

Seriously? Sainz beat Max in 2015 qualifying? Look what the facts reveal. Even in 2016, where they were together for the first 4 races, Max beat Sainz 3-1 in qualifying and was ahead on points too, before he moved to RB.

[Ground Effect]

Let me make it simple for you. Ric's stocks have gone southwards, having been beaten by Max and he wouldn't get into Mercedes or Ferrari ever. For the top teams, their alpha need to be a guy who has ultimate one lap pace.

So when you say beaten by Max, you mean in qualifying? Because I know Max has yet to finish ahead of Ricciardo in the championship, and he's behind this season as well. Carlos beat Max in qualifying in their debut season, when they were together at Toro Rosso, but Max got the accolades and promotion because of his performance in the races, he finished ahead of Carlos in the championship.
Max certainly has a clear advantage over Ricciardo in qualifying, he also appears to have the edge in overall race pace. But I think for the moment at least, Ricciardo has the better race craft.

Seriously? Sainz beat Max in 2015 qualifying? Look what the facts reveal. Even in 2016, where they were together for the first 4 races, Max beat Sainz 3-1 in qualifying and was ahead on points too, before he moved to RB.

https://image.ibb.co/c1RXAp/maxvssainz.png

I did say Verstappen got the accolades because he had the better race performance, hence he's the superior driver. I also don't know where the chart is from because in 2015, qualifying ended 10-9 in Carlos' favour.

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12471/ ... rlos-sainz

[Ground Effect]

Let me make it simple for you. Ric's stocks have gone southwards, having been beaten by Max and he wouldn't get into Mercedes or Ferrari ever. For the top teams, their alpha need to be a guy who has ultimate one lap pace.

So when you say beaten by Max, you mean in qualifying? Because I know Max has yet to finish ahead of Ricciardo in the championship, and he's behind this season as well. Carlos beat Max in qualifying in their debut season, when they were together at Toro Rosso, but Max got the accolades and promotion because of his performance in the races, he finished ahead of Carlos in the championship.
Max certainly has a clear advantage over Ricciardo in qualifying, he also appears to have the edge in overall race pace. But I think for the moment at least, Ricciardo has the better race craft.

Seriously? Sainz beat Max in 2015 qualifying? Look what the facts reveal. Even in 2016, where they were together for the first 4 races, Max beat Sainz 3-1 in qualifying and was ahead on points too, before he moved to RB.

https://image.ibb.co/c1RXAp/maxvssainz.png

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12471/ ... fying-duel

[Edax]

So when you say beaten by Max, you mean in qualifying? Because I know Max has yet to finish ahead of Ricciardo in the championship, and he's behind this season as well. Carlos beat Max in qualifying in their debut season, when they were together at Toro Rosso, but Max got the accolades and promotion because of his performance in the races, he finished ahead of Carlos in the championship.
Max certainly has a clear advantage over Ricciardo in qualifying, he also appears to have the edge in overall race pace. But I think for the moment at least, Ricciardo has the better race craft.

Seriously? Sainz beat Max in 2015 qualifying? Look what the facts reveal. Even in 2016, where they were together for the first 4 races, Max beat Sainz 3-1 in qualifying and was ahead on points too, before he moved to RB.

https://image.ibb.co/c1RXAp/maxvssainz.png

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12471/ ... fying-duel

The difference is in Monaco. Sainz qualified ahead of Verstappen, but he forgot to visit the weightbridge, therefore his times were invalidated and he had to start last. Sky is counting that for Sainz, GPR’s source doesn’t.

Probably can debate about it for 20 pages. But I would call 9-10 statistically even either way.

[adrianjordan]

By 2012, it had dawned upon Webber that, he was simply too slow to match Vettel and he just wanted to spoil the game in Brazil. 15-3 on pole record in 2011 was simply humiliating, while the only other non RB driver to get a pole was Hamilton and that too, only once. It was just a sour driver, unable to beat his faster team mate.

That is the situation with Ricciardo currently, who is unable to beat Max in qualifying, which determines who the faster driver is. If RB14 was as dominant as RB7 was, then the results would have been more or less similar to 2011 and I say this because Max gets out of the line faster on starts, than Ricciardo. So if he is on pole and gets away, then he would be gone, just like Vettel was in 2011.

In 2021, Ric would be 32 and there would be Max available on the market too. There would be Hamilton and Vettel free for 2021 and if they get locked in their respective teams, it would be once again same situation as it is for 2019. There would be Mercedes junior drivers like Ocon and George Russell on the horizon. There would be Lando Norris and Leclerc alongside. If Hulk manages to beat Ric in qualifying, then it would be game over for Ric.

That's a whole lot of ifs in there...

Let me make it simple for you. Ric's stocks have gone southwards, having been beaten by Max and he wouldn't get into Mercedes or Ferrari ever. For the top teams, their alpha need to be a guy who has ultimate one lap pace.

Alonso would beg to differ. When you're renowned as one of the best overtakes in the sport, qualifying isn't the be all and end all...

[Ground Effect]

By 2012, it had dawned upon Webber that, he was simply too slow to match Vettel and he just wanted to spoil the game in Brazil. 15-3 on pole record in 2011 was simply humiliating, while the only other non RB driver to get a pole was Hamilton and that too, only once. It was just a sour driver, unable to beat his faster team mate.

That is the situation with Ricciardo currently, who is unable to beat Max in qualifying, which determines who the faster driver is. If RB14 was as dominant as RB7 was, then the results would have been more or less similar to 2011 and I say this because Max gets out of the line faster on starts, than Ricciardo. So if he is on pole and gets away, then he would be gone, just like Vettel was in 2011.

In 2021, Ric would be 32 and there would be Max available on the market too. There would be Hamilton and Vettel free for 2021 and if they get locked in their respective teams, it would be once again same situation as it is for 2019. There would be Mercedes junior drivers like Ocon and George Russell on the horizon. There would be Lando Norris and Leclerc alongside. If Hulk manages to beat Ric in qualifying, then it would be game over for Ric.

That's a whole lot of ifs in there...

Let me make it simple for you. Ric's stocks have gone southwards, having been beaten by Max and he wouldn't get into Mercedes or Ferrari ever. For the top teams, their alpha need to be a guy who has ultimate one lap pace.

Your opinion, and my opinion is that Ricciardo isn't going to Mercedes or Ferrari because he is too quick for their current nbr 1 drivers. The teams wouldn't want to rock the boat. At least we have historical evidence that he's proved himself against Seb, a 4 time world champion.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

That's a whole lot of ifs in there...

Let me make it simple for you. Ric's stocks have gone southwards, having been beaten by Max and he wouldn't get into Mercedes or Ferrari ever. For the top teams, their alpha need to be a guy who has ultimate one lap pace.

Your opinion, and my opinion is that Ricciardo isn't going to Mercedes or Ferrari because he is too quick for their current nbr 1 drivers. The teams wouldn't want to rock the boat. At least we have historical evidence that he's proved himself against Seb, a 4 time world champion.

The guy is getting beaten by a kid and found to be nowhere when it is wet and he is going to challenge Hamilton? There is a limit to have emotions and follow a driver, but to this level?

Despite Red Bull's stance that, they wanted to keep him, he is leaving the team. What boat was Ric rocking in RB. Clearly, Horner is right. Ric's own boat is rocking.

[adrianjordan]

Let me make it simple for you. Ric's stocks have gone southwards, having been beaten by Max and he wouldn't get into Mercedes or Ferrari ever. For the top teams, their alpha need to be a guy who has ultimate one lap pace.

Your opinion, and my opinion is that Ricciardo isn't going to Mercedes or Ferrari because he is too quick for their current nbr 1 drivers. The teams wouldn't want to rock the boat. At least we have historical evidence that he's proved himself against Seb, a 4 time world champion.

The guy is getting beaten by a kid and found to be nowhere when it is wet and he is going to challenge Hamilton? There is a limit to have emotions and follow a driver, but to this level?

Despite Red Bull's stance that, they wanted to keep him, he is leaving the team. What boat was Ric rocking in RB. Clearly, Horner is right. Ric's own boat is rocking.

You have a different definition of beating than I do. To me scoring more points and victories than the other guy is beating. Sunday is where points are awarded and so Sunday is when the results matter.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Your opinion, and my opinion is that Ricciardo isn't going to Mercedes or Ferrari because he is too quick for their current nbr 1 drivers. The teams wouldn't want to rock the boat. At least we have historical evidence that he's proved himself against Seb, a 4 time world champion.

The guy is getting beaten by a kid and found to be nowhere when it is wet and he is going to challenge Hamilton? There is a limit to have emotions and follow a driver, but to this level?

Despite Red Bull's stance that, they wanted to keep him, he is leaving the team. What boat was Ric rocking in RB. Clearly, Horner is right. Ric's own boat is rocking.

You have a different definition of beating than I do. To me scoring more points and victories than the other guy is beating. Sunday is where points are awarded and so Sunday is when the results matter.

You should also be thankful to Renault for their incredible reliability, which has allowed Ric to be ahead on points. Ponder upon this. Since last year, almost every time Max has had a mechanical DNF, he was ahead of Ric and almost every time Ric had a mechanical DNF, he was behind Max! Check those facts out. So you are a wise man, should be able to calculate who lost more.