Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[stevesingo]

I guess the question is what is the purpose of "The ES SOC cannot change more than 4MJ at any time the car is on track"?

My interpretation is that if there was no limit to the SOC, the MGU-H could be used to charge the ES over a period of time/laps and then use far in of 4MJ/lap for multiple laps. Also, if the SOC was not limited, there would be a battery arms race in order to get the most storage capacity within the FiA ES weight limit.

Both of the above interpretations are probably counter to delivering good racing and relevant tech for the road.

[henry]

I guess the question is what is the purpose of "The ES SOC cannot change more than 4MJ at any time the car is on track"?

My interpretation is that if there was no limit to the SOC, the MGU-H could be used to charge the ES over a period of time/laps and then use far in of 4MJ/lap for multiple laps. Also, if the SOC was not limited, there would be a battery arms race in order to get the most storage capacity within the FiA ES weight limit.

Both of the above interpretations are probably counter to delivering good racing and relevant tech for the road.

The actual regulation has a slightly different wording:

The difference between the maximum and the minimum state of charge may not exceed 4MJ at any time the car is on the track.

I don’t think your interpretation fits this form of words.

The ES is a bucket, you can fill and empty it as many times as you like but you can’t change is size.

As for the purpose of this regulation I would guess your suggestion that it prevents a battery arms race is correct.

[sosic2121]

As for the purpose of this regulation I would guess your suggestion that it prevents a battery arms race is correct.

Without it, Q-mode would be much more powerful!

[Krischnen]

Small question, rumours went Ferrari had a sudden increase of ?40?hp some races ago, which I think started this discussion. Though it is a valid discussion how the energy system could potentially be used, it does not explain the sudden 40hp increase does it? I mean the mgu-k just isn't allowed to deliver more than 120kW, I assume all teams use this power, so the secret must be somewhere else?

The turmoil about these engines has been going on since last winter I think? We had the mysterious turbo-smoke during the wintertests. In Bahrain people started talking about Ferrari engines sounding strange while cornering. The third-paddle in China. Twin-batteries pre Monaco. Somewhere in between we had the discussion and a technical directive about off-throttle rearwing blowing (not limited to Ferrari though).

Saying they found 40hp is too simple. As these engines are so complex it's very unlikely those 40hp are available across the whole powerband. It can be they found extra power in a specific area of the powerband, it could mean longer electrical deployment, it could be a combination of those two (likely), it could be something else.

Afaik the increase in power wasn't found after a physical upgrade of the engine (Kimi is still running spec 1), this leads me to believe it has to do with the way they are harvesting energy.

I have an idea what they could be doing, i'll try to make a decent post about it when i find some time this week.

[subcritical71]

Small question, rumours went Ferrari had a sudden increase of ?40?hp some races ago, which I think started this discussion. Though it is a valid discussion how the energy system could potentially be used, it does not explain the sudden 40hp increase does it? I mean the mgu-k just isn't allowed to deliver more than 120kW, I assume all teams use this power, so the secret must be somewhere else?

Even though all are most likely capable of deploying 120kW, it’s the amount of time they can do so that is vastly different. Every J they can recover (more than their competition) and direct to the MGU-K is 160hp for x amount of time. If they only do 40hp (~30kW) then the can do that for 4x the amount of time for the same amount of extra energy recovery. Is it better to do 120kW for 3 seconds, or 30kW for 12 seconds(?). I believe there is still more development and optimization of the ERS that can be done to extract the most out of the cars. The whole fueling, wastegate and turbo schedule, when to harvest, when to deploy, etc. I just don’t believe anyone has it completely figured it out or can optimize it how they would in an ideal world.

[saviour stivala]

Small question, rumours went Ferrari had a sudden increase of ?40?hp some races ago, which I think started this discussion. Though it is a valid discussion how the energy system could potentially be used, it does not explain the sudden 40hp increase does it? I mean the mgu-k just isn't allowed to deliver more than 120kW, I assume all teams use this power, so the secret must be somewhere else?

The FERRARI horsepower gains are not electric horsepower gains but are produced by the ICE (combustion).

[hurril]

Small question, rumours went Ferrari had a sudden increase of ?40?hp some races ago, which I think started this discussion. Though it is a valid discussion how the energy system could potentially be used, it does not explain the sudden 40hp increase does it? I mean the mgu-k just isn't allowed to deliver more than 120kW, I assume all teams use this power, so the secret must be somewhere else?

The FERRARI horsepower gains are not electric horsepower gains but are produced by the ICE (combustion).

Source?

[turbof1]

Small question, rumours went Ferrari had a sudden increase of ?40?hp some races ago, which I think started this discussion. Though it is a valid discussion how the energy system could potentially be used, it does not explain the sudden 40hp increase does it? I mean the mgu-k just isn't allowed to deliver more than 120kW, I assume all teams use this power, so the secret must be somewhere else?

The FERRARI horsepower gains are not electric horsepower gains but are produced by the ICE (combustion).

Very well possible. They definitely made huge steps with the electrical horsepower deployment across a longer span of time, but the increase qualifying horsepower can't just be explained away with an increase in electrical deployment. I personally think both mercedes and ferrari (those 2 at the very least) are already at the point they can deploy a constant 120kw electrical power across a single lap. Just make sure you have 4MJ on board when starting your hot lap, and spend it fully plus the additional harvested energy. You should easily be able to have enough energy for 120kw the whole lap round when on the throttle.

One possible explanation is Ferrari is having more than enough surplus of electrical energy to constantly keep the turbo spooled up electrically and can just open up the wastegate constantly, reducing back pressure and increasing ICE horsepower.

An other explanation could be a breakthrough regarding fuel.

Or a mixture of several options. The last few weeks I have seen truly intense and very eye opening discussions about what is actually possible with electrical energy harvesting and deployment. Although a piece of Ferrari's puzzle might manifest in the electrical side due an engineering breakthrough being able to suddenly to harvest a big chunk more energy, conceptually everything we discussed will probably have been known by the manufacturers even before 2014. If they have the technology to do it, they will do it.

So either:
-They made an engineering/technological leap that unlocked a concept we discussed here (but again should be known to Ferrari for a very long time already).
-Or they made the improvement somewhere else, and we are looking at something like fuel.

[djones]

The fact Merc are leading both championships aside....

I am yet to see anything that suggests the Ferrari engine is better than the Mercedes and any differences in speed (talk of .5 down one straight) can be explained with a low downforce setup. Simply because Mercedes were so close on pace (in that race I think even bottas managed to get within .2 in qual).

Unless people want to say all the time lost on the straight, was then made up by the Mercedes chassis.

No... I think they are just running less downforce than Mercedes and this is also why Ferrari were so bad in the wet.

Let's see what happens at Spa. If all the people saying Ferrari have mega power, then they will qualify well ahead and easily win. If they don't get pole and they don't win, then hopefully we can put this Ferrari engine fantasy to bed.

[dren]

All energy used/harvested comes from the fuel and how the ICE combusts it. The improvements might be on the turbine side along with fuel/combustion?

There is only so much ES; they are constantly trying to optimize its use at each corner of a given track. More ES usage requires more ES store which then requires either burning more fuel or taking an ICE derate. That trade off is probably shifted during the race depending on track position, strategy, etc.

[GrandAxe]

Small question, rumours went Ferrari had a sudden increase of ?40?hp some races ago, which I think started this discussion. Though it is a valid discussion how the energy system could potentially be used, it does not explain the sudden 40hp increase does it? I mean the mgu-k just isn't allowed to deliver more than 120kW, I assume all teams use this power, so the secret must be somewhere else?

As has been pointed out, it is for how long the 120KW can be delivered. A lot of the benefits of the MGU-K would be the amount of torque its motor component can deliver (compared to ICE-gearbox combination) as well as the fine control that can be applied to it as an electronic system.

For instance, because of its torque advantage and amenability to algorithms; in a hypothetical car one might want to propel the car through the most difficult track sections (e.g. corners) by MGU-H in a way that normal propulsion would find difficult to match. Maybe this accounts for Ferrari's strange sounds through corners, who knows.

Further, if the MGU-H is used during braking and accelerating phases, the gearing of the car can be mapped to higher RPMs with shorter intervals than normal between changes, advantage can also be taken to gain efficiency by running the engine at RPMs closer to its sweet spot - not lowering RPM so much at slower track sections.

A team wouldn't mind burning extra fuel for more power if its engine runs more efficiently than others.

Now, a question for the experts please; even though the regulations say the MGU-K must be solely connected to the powertrain at a point before the main clutch, can the MGU-K not directly operate the rear wheels in neutral, so long as torque is not transferred in a way that mimics ABS?

[dren]

The K cannot bypass the transmission and independently drive the rear wheels.

[PlatinumZealot]

Small question, rumours went Ferrari had a sudden increase of ?40?hp some races ago, which I think started this discussion. Though it is a valid discussion how the energy system could potentially be used, it does not explain the sudden 40hp increase does it? I mean the mgu-k just isn't allowed to deliver more than 120kW, I assume all teams use this power, so the secret must be somewhere else?

The FERRARI horsepower gains are not electric horsepower gains but are produced by the ICE (combustion).

This! 100%!
The Electric horsepower is limited.
It acts through the MGUK and only develops in duration of usage.
The ICE is where Ferrari is doing the damage.

[Gr1ff]

Small question, rumours went Ferrari had a sudden increase of ?40?hp some races ago, which I think started this discussion. Though it is a valid discussion how the energy system could potentially be used, it does not explain the sudden 40hp increase does it? I mean the mgu-k just isn't allowed to deliver more than 120kW, I assume all teams use this power, so the secret must be somewhere else?

The FERRARI horsepower gains are not electric horsepower gains but are produced by the ICE (combustion).

This! 100%!
The Electric horsepower is limited.
It acts through the MGUK and only develops in duration of usage.
The ICE is where Ferrari is doing the damage.

How do you explain the sudden increase with no change to kimi's ice then?

[turbof1]

The FERRARI horsepower gains are not electric horsepower gains but are produced by the ICE (combustion).

This! 100%!
The Electric horsepower is limited.
It acts through the MGUK and only develops in duration of usage.
The ICE is where Ferrari is doing the damage.

How do you explain the sudden increase with no change to kimi's ice then?

Potentially already locked into the earlier spec of the PU.