Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[aleks_ader]

So either:
-They made an engineering/technological leap that unlocked a concept we discussed here (but again should be known to Ferrari for a very long time already).

Mr turbo could you in two keywords point me what discussion you had in mind?

[henry]

....

Is it better to do 120kW for 3 seconds, or 30kW for 12 seconds(?).

IMO it’s better to do the former, 120kW for 3 seconds, so long as the 3 seconds you choose are at the the lowest possible speed. Three 1 second bursts of 120 kW at the start of straights are better than 12 seconds of 30kW along a straight. This is because at higher speeds most power is used to push the air out of the way.

Of course in the context of Ferrari and their supposed power advantage this would mean they would deploy the extra power at the lowest speed at which the competition runs outfoxed power.

There have been conflicting reports about the threshold speed at which Ferrari gain their advantage. Some say 150kph, which would be as soon as they are not traction limited. This would suggest extra ICE power since everyone would be using the MGU-K at 120kW then. Some say it’s at 250kph which might be either more sustained use of either extra ICE power or MGU-K power, or both. Either way I think they will deploy all of any extra power they have at as low a speed as possible.

[henry]

As for the purpose of this regulation I would guess your suggestion that it prevents a battery arms race is correct.

Without it, Q-mode would be much more powerful!

You’re absolutely right. As would the first few laps of the race. In Q they might consume as much as 12MJ maybe a little more, but in the first few laps of the race the sky’s the limit. The bigger the battery the higher the sky.

[saviour stivala]

“Potentially already locked into the earlier specification of the power unit” correct, the delay in pushing that development out on track was caused by unfortunate problems with Kimi’s turbo/H combination.

[restless]

IMO it’s better to do the former, 120kW for 3 seconds, so long as the 3 seconds you choose are at the the lowest possible speed. Three 1 second bursts of 120 kW at the start of straights are better than 12 seconds of 30kW along a straight. This is because at higher speeds most power is used to push the air out of the way.

Can you prove it with, ahem, calculations?
Say, you have 20 secs of max power, which will be faster 3secs of 120kw or 12 secs of 30kw?
You say the answer is simple...

[saviour stivala]

There are two levels of possible maximum power output from the power unit. The most efficient and the least efficient. These two levels of maximum power outputs will in turn produce their own level of fastest time around a lap. The most efficient maximum power output is achieved by deploying maximum electrical power by the electrical engine + maximum power output of the ICE with the least possible fuel used, this will result in the fastest lap time with maximum efficiency. The least efficient maximum power output is the most powerful of the two, with the resultant fastest of the two lap times. This is achieved by the electrical engine deploying maximum electrical power while sharing ES power with the MGU-H + the maximum power output possible by the ICE in electric supercharged mode. In my opinion there is very little if any differences in these two maximum power output modes between the top two teams as witnessed in qualifying (deployment of maximum power output possible with the resultant fastest lap time possible). The differences (gains) are only manifesting themselves during the race by the team that can afford to deploy the least efficient maximum power output during the race.

[dren]

Some real rough calculations and assumptions:

Hockenheim 2018 Pole 74.3s
Braking: 19% of lap
Full Throttle: 53% of lap
Assume full 120kw MGUK for both events
Assume 25kw turbine generation from blowdown (TC guessed this a few years ago)
Assume 45kw required for compressor

19% x 74.3s x 120kw = 1.7MW MGUK regen
53% x 74.3s x (120kw + 25kw - 45kw) = 5.5MW motoring MGUK & MGUH

3.8MW required for full lap from ES

That doesn't take into account the rest of the demands for the remaining 28% of the lap.

It looks like they should be able to run a full qualifying lap in such a manner, but coming up with roughly 4MW during that 28% of the lap during the race might be a stretch...

[hurril]

IMO it’s better to do the former, 120kW for 3 seconds, so long as the 3 seconds you choose are at the the lowest possible speed. Three 1 second bursts of 120 kW at the start of straights are better than 12 seconds of 30kW along a straight. This is because at higher speeds most power is used to push the air out of the way.

Can you prove it with, ahem, calculations?
Say, you have 20 secs of max power, which will be faster 3secs of 120kw or 12 secs of 30kw?
You say the answer is simple...

Provided linear everything, 3s of 120kW could cut the lap time by more than the alternative because the average speed will be higher for that particular duration. I know it's never really this simple but it is my understanding that the preference is to accelerate faster over a higher top speed.

[dren]

IMO it’s better to do the former, 120kW for 3 seconds, so long as the 3 seconds you choose are at the the lowest possible speed. Three 1 second bursts of 120 kW at the start of straights are better than 12 seconds of 30kW along a straight. This is because at higher speeds most power is used to push the air out of the way.

Can you prove it with, ahem, calculations?
Say, you have 20 secs of max power, which will be faster 3secs of 120kw or 12 secs of 30kw?
You say the answer is simple...

Provided linear everything, 3s of 120kW could cut the lap time by more than the alternative because the average speed will be higher for that particular duration. I know it's never really this simple but it is my understanding that the preference is to accelerate faster over a higher top speed.

It's how Red Bull won Monza several years ago. The gearing they used was short. Their top speed wasn't great but they got there very quick.

[hurril]

Can you prove it with, ahem, calculations?
Say, you have 20 secs of max power, which will be faster 3secs of 120kw or 12 secs of 30kw?
You say the answer is simple...

Provided linear everything, 3s of 120kW could cut the lap time by more than the alternative because the average speed will be higher for that particular duration. I know it's never really this simple but it is my understanding that the preference is to accelerate faster over a higher top speed.

It's how Red Bull won Monza several years ago. The gearing they used was short. Their top speed wasn't great but they got there very quick.

Exactly!

[subcritical71]

Provided linear everything, 3s of 120kW could cut the lap time by more than the alternative because the average speed will be higher for that particular duration. I know it's never really this simple but it is my understanding that the preference is to accelerate faster over a higher top speed.

It's how Red Bull won Monza several years ago. The gearing they used was short. Their top speed wasn't great but they got there very quick.

Exactly!

I'm thinking everyone can deploy 120kW to the MGU-K for at least a few seconds on each straight. So the equation then becomes at say 150+kph, what is the best strategy. I'm still thinking 120kW all at once, vs smaller increments but their may be tradeoffs with the first scenario (cooling, for example).

[henry]

IMO it’s better to do the former, 120kW for 3 seconds, so long as the 3 seconds you choose are at the the lowest possible speed. Three 1 second bursts of 120 kW at the start of straights are better than 12 seconds of 30kW along a straight. This is because at higher speeds most power is used to push the air out of the way.

Can you prove it with, ahem, calculations?
Say, you have 20 secs of max power, which will be faster 3secs of 120kw or 12 secs of 30kw?
You say the answer is simple...

I did a little calculation. Very basic.

I assumed:
Car mass 840kg (that’s 730 basic + 50kg fuel + 60kg for rotational inertia, wheels etc)
ICE power 550kW, 670 with MGU-K fully deployed (910hp)
Car max speed 360kph (at which speed all the ICE power is consumed by the drag)
Drag proportional to road speed cubed
Traction limit speed 150kph

I used your profiles:
Run 1 670kW for 3 seconds 550kW for 17
Run 2 580kW for 12 seconds 550kW for 8

After 20 seconds
Run 1 speed 357kph Distance 1763m
Run 2 speed 357.8 kph Distance 1755m

So the short burst of 120kW is 8m further down the road.

[PlatinumZealot]

The FERRARI horsepower gains are not electric horsepower gains but are produced by the ICE (combustion).

This! 100%!
The Electric horsepower is limited.
It acts through the MGUK and only develops in duration of usage.
The ICE is where Ferrari is doing the damage.

How do you explain the sudden increase with no change to kimi's ice then?

The engine could always do it. It's more reliable now so they can do it more often. Squeeze out more power using engine tuning, lubricants, fuel. The ICE is the big differentiator in qualifying.

I also do believe Ferrari has a "trick" chassis and "trick" aero that works the tyre better at certain tracks.

[subcritical71]

After 20 seconds
Run 1 speed 357kph Distance 1763m
Run 2 speed 357.8 kph Distance 1755m

So the short burst of 120kW is 8m further down the road.

Is that a typo or does Run 2 deliver a faster speed? I ask because, and I know I need to do my own calc's - I'm just too busy/lazy at the moment, but it got me thinking it may be better to ramp the 120 down over a period of time as speed increases....

[henry]

After 20 seconds
Run 1 speed 357kph Distance 1763m
Run 2 speed 357.8 kph Distance 1755m

So the short burst of 120kW is 8m further down the road.

Is that a typo or does Run 2 deliver a faster speed? I ask because, and I know I need to do my own calc's - I'm just too busy/lazy at the moment, but it got me thinking it may be better to ramp the 120 down over a period of time as speed increases....

Faster speed. But the objective is not speed it’s distance covered.

I think it’s always better for lap time to deploy max power at as low speed as possible and switch it off rather than ramp down. But I haven’t done a calc. So maybe I’m wrong.