2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Ricciardo pasted Vettel, has arguably out-competed the (apparent) second coming of Christ and wins while driving a snail. In F1 today this is good enough for only the sixth best seat as a #2 patsy.

Vettel is a kind of driver who would be difficult to beat when the car is performing as expected and competing at the front. After having driven a world beater RB9, to then drive a far less competitive RB10, definitely made him disheartened. He had a repeat of it in 2016, after having performed well in 2015. RB10 wasn't the car that offered him the opportunity to compete and that translated into lackluster performance. Ric was a new boy, happy with the best car he had ever driven and went around merrily, even it means collecting scraps from Mercedes duel. That was the psychological difference and the performance differentiator in 2014. I highly doubt if Ric can beat Vettel, if the car is as good as RB7, RB9 or SF71-H.

Hamilton also gets beaten by Bottas on days where he loses focus due to car not being in place where he wants it to be. With the exception of Alonso, I haven't seen anyone having a desire to go out and do well in a car that is bad on a particular day.

So, Ric beating Vettel in 2014, was a difference in state of mind between the two and not as much with the abilities.

[kaepernickus]

Baku ??? that was a race incident ( in my opinion more Daniel fault )

You can clearly see RIC trying to go on the outside, VER swivels to the outside as well and blocks him (so far so good).
Then RIC changes his line to go down the inside, VER swivels to the inside to block him (changing defensive line for the second time) leaving RIC, carrying more speed, nowhere to go.

So... if there's somebody to blame it's most definitely VER.
Also neither the first nor the last time VER aggressively changed lines multiple times whilst defending.

[Just_a_fan]

With the exception of Alonso, I haven't seen anyone having a desire to go out and do well in a car that is bad on a particular day.

"GP2 engine, GP2 engine, aargh! Embarassing!"

[roon]

Said whilst driving...

[GPR-A duplicate2]

With the exception of Alonso, I haven't seen anyone having a desire to go out and do well in a car that is bad on a particular day.

"GP2 engine, GP2 engine, aargh! Embarassing!"

How about a 2012 season review? Dog of a car and almost won the Title.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/10286 ... nce-to-rbr

Fernando Alonso's consistency an 'annoyance' to Red Bull, says Christian Horner

[djos]

Daniel has had more retirements through mechanical issues than Max has in the last 18months, thats a fact.
Yet everyone thinks Max is the unlucky one.

Exactly, Max makes his own bad luck by driving recklessly, Monaco, Baku and China are all great examples of him throwing away good results.

Baku ??? that was a race incident ( in my opinion more Daniel fault )

Yes this year Max is more involved by crashes then all years before.
But 2017 he was always in a better position then Daniel for retirement with mechanical issues.
Both drivers are great but I think Max is faster. He needs only a little bit more experince

Even the FIA pointed out that max's illegal 2nd move took away the air from Dan's front wing causing a loss of breaking control and thus the accident.

Ps there's no argument Max is faster, even blind Freddy can see that.

[WaikeCU]

Exactly, Max makes his own bad luck by driving recklessly, Monaco, Baku and China are all great examples of him throwing away good results.

Baku ??? that was a race incident ( in my opinion more Daniel fault )

Yes this year Max is more involved by crashes then all years before.
But 2017 he was always in a better position then Daniel for retirement with mechanical issues.
Both drivers are great but I think Max is faster. He needs only a little bit more experince

Even the FIA pointed out that max's illegal 2nd move took away the air from Dan's front wing causing a loss of breaking control and thus the accident.

Ps there's no argument Max is faster, even blind Freddy can see that.

The one is rather consistent in being reckless, while the other is rather consistent in not being reckless.

The sole difference is the one is a bit faster than the other.

[carisi2k]

Qualifying as a comparison in the red bull these last 2 seasons has been pointless. What is the difference between starting 5th or 6th on the grid. Maybe max has a little extra pace but of the 2 team mates who has 2 pole positions? Red bull is in the situation of being not quite quick enough to challenge Mercedes or Ferrari for the most part but significantly quicker then the 7th placed car.

[Phil]

Lets test that hypothesis then shall we?? Horner said similar in his podcast, that Renault don't give Red Bull the best product (engines), ostensibly of the like they fully pay for and expect to receive a first-class service from. He said if he was in Renault's position he would do exactly the same and as such the excuses for poor performance were all Abiteboul's!! Not a trick question but how many races have Renault won this year against customer Red Bull, using a superior specified product to the like that they supposedly save for those lacking intimate knowledge? Quite a huge elephant in that Red Bull room!

There's no need to test any hypothesis, because it's common-sense. Evidently, RedBull have overcome many deficits versus their supplier due to having built an exceptional chassis with very good aero. There are areas though where Renault as their own supplier have their own advantages that are confirmed by both teams too:

1.) fuel maximization
The Renault works team has supposedly a greater output due to being optimized for different fuels that RedBull doesn't use.

2.) packaging (MGU-K)
Renault upgraded to a spec2 MGU-K unit that requires new packaging that is not easy to fulfill. Obviously, not a problem for the works-team because they designed the part according to their own requirements, but for a customer any change has bigger consequences. McLaren stated too that the packaging requirements of the spec-2 MGU-K unit is quite demanding and opted to run without it initially at first too. RedBull still aren't using it. One can assume it isn't a plug & play part.

People need to understand that this formula isn't about simply fitting an engine to a car anymore. These new engines are called POWER-UNITS for a reason. They are large, they are heavy and they are incredibly complex with far reaching demands to the car. It's not just an engine, it's an ICE, a MGU-H, MGU-K, cooling, battery etc. Aero is linked to packaging. Packaging is linked to cooling. Cooling is linked to performance and reliability. Performance and reliability is linked to how well you fare on the track and across the season. A works-team, a supplier, a power-unit manufacturer can make full use of this because they can design both car and power-unit as one perfectly balanced item. They have full insight of all parameters, they know the exact cooling requirements under all situations, they have the best insight on reliability and therefore can design the car around that power-unit. They also have a clear and intimate knowledge of the development path or can choose this according to their own requirements, not the requirements of their clients.

A client such as RedBull or McLaren don't have this. They are mere clients. They design the car according to the data their supplier supplies them. They'll never have the same insight the works-team does.

Succeeding in this formula is all about optimizing all parts, all factors. This is where Mercedes has succeeded and where Ferrari is now succeeding too. Perfect integration between car and power-unit. Not perfect integration means a compromise and compromise means hitting below the potential of the package.

[Ground Effect]

It appears Gasly is the hot favourite to replace Ricciardo, very odd if you ask me. I wonder why Red Bull would allow Sainz go, when they have an option on him for 2019. I guess Verstappen isn't too eager to have him back as a teammate.

[etusch]

It appears Gasly is the hot favourite to replace Ricciardo, very odd if you ask me. I wonder why Red Bull would allow Sainz go, when they have an option on him for 2019. I guess Verstappen isn't too eager to have him back as a teammate.

After doing something over and over then a break makes it better. I expect Gasly and Hartley will start second part of the season stronger. This is just prediction for now, I think Gasly will be better than Sains and more headache for Vestappen.

[Ground Effect]

It appears Gasly is the hot favourite to replace Ricciardo, very odd if you ask me. I wonder why Red Bull would allow Sainz go, when they have an option on him for 2019. I guess Verstappen isn't too eager to have him back as a teammate.

After doing something over and over then a break makes it better. I expect Gasly and Hartley will start second part of the season stronger. This is just prediction for now, I think Gasly will be better than Sains and more headache for Vestappen.

We'll see how it goes, no doubt Gasly has huge talent and potential, it would be nice to see a strong battle within the team. But from what we've seen so far, Gasly will need to make giant strides to get close to Verstappen's level.

[carisi2k]

As many on here know. I believe that Red Bull made a huge mistake in not moving with toro rosso to the Honda unit this year. Maybe the RB-14 wouldn't have been optimised but it surely would have been better then having to deal with Cyril this year and a Renault engine that is proving problematic. They could have had a factory deal this year instead of having to deal with the changing dimensions of the Renault PU as a customer.

They might even have had a better chance at keeping Daniel if for instance he had won at Bahrain (highly likely if his battery didn't explode on the second lap), China and Monaco. If Daniel wins those races with a Honda powered RB14 instead of 2 with a Renault then staying at Red Bull would have been a no brainer. Maybe after signing for Renault Daniel will get some magic engine for the rest of 2018 while max gets the scraps.

The only downside to an RB14 Honda in 2018 would have been a lack of banter between Christian and Cyril's towards each other. I mean some of the chatter going back and forth has been brilliant. The Sky team seriously play it up as well when asking them questions after the other one has just spoken.

As good as Gasly has been this year in the STR13 at times he is not anywhere near the level of Daniel as aside from the incident with Max at Bahrain. Daniel has not put a foot wrong in the car well maybe except for putting his car on the outside of bottas in to turn one at Hungary.

[zac510]

You can only make those statements with hindsight.

[Big Tea]

They might even have had a better chance at keeping Daniel if for instance he had won at Bahrain (highly likely if his battery didn't explode on the second lap), China and Monaco. If Daniel wins those races with a Honda powered RB14 instead of 2 with a Renault then staying at Red Bull would have been a no brainer. Maybe after signing for Renault Daniel will get some magic engine for the rest of 2018 while max gets the scraps.

I'm not sure how much of Ricciardo leaving is down to the engine and how much to other factors in Red Bull.
It seems he was given all he wanted but left anyway. (do not want to drag off topic, but just mention my feelings)