2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

[Ground Effect]

As many on here know. I believe that Red Bull made a huge mistake in not moving with toro rosso to the Honda unit this year. Maybe the RB-14 wouldn't have been optimised but it surely would have been better then having to deal with Cyril this year and a Renault engine that is proving problematic. They could have had a factory deal this year instead of having to deal with the changing dimensions of the Renault PU as a customer.

They might even have had a better chance at keeping Daniel if for instance he had won at Bahrain (highly likely if his battery didn't explode on the second lap), China and Monaco. If Daniel wins those races with a Honda powered RB14 instead of 2 with a Renault then staying at Red Bull would have been a no brainer. Maybe after signing for Renault Daniel will get some magic engine for the rest of 2018 while max gets the scraps.

The only downside to an RB14 Honda in 2018 would have been a lack of banter between Christian and Cyril's towards each other. I mean some of the chatter going back and forth has been brilliant. The Sky team seriously play it up as well when asking them questions after the other one has just spoken.

As good as Gasly has been this year in the STR13 at times he is not anywhere near the level of Daniel as aside from the incident with Max at Bahrain. Daniel has not put a foot wrong in the car well maybe except for putting his car on the outside of bottas in to turn one at Hungary.

I don't think it's a given that they would have won in Bahrain, or anywhere for that matter. How compromised would the RB14 have been to accommodate a late switch? Obviously, Red Bull have the resources to make it as seamless as possible, but there would have still been some niggles and they would have probably gone with Honda's guidelines on certain areas. I think they did absolutely the right thing watching from the sidelines and getting all the data.

[Squid]

With the exception of Alonso, I haven't seen anyone having a desire to go out and do well in a car that is bad on a particular day.

"GP2 engine, GP2 engine, aargh! Embarassing!"

How about a 2012 season review? Dog of a car and almost won the Title.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/10286 ... nce-to-rbr

Fernando Alonso's consistency an 'annoyance' to Red Bull, says Christian Horner

Alonso really did a good job convincing people that he took a Fiat Punto with an aftermarket spoiler into championship contention in 2012.

[McMika98]

A long shot but Jenson Button might be interested in the RedBull seat. Perfect for developing and setting up the car. Also he wont trouble Verstappen and will be happy to play second fiddle.
Gasly has few highlights but after that he has been ordinary if not flashes of poor racecraft. Dont think he is quite ready yet.

[makecry]

"GP2 engine, GP2 engine, aargh! Embarassing!"

How about a 2012 season review? Dog of a car and almost won the Title.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/10286 ... nce-to-rbr

Fernando Alonso's consistency an 'annoyance' to Red Bull, says Christian Horner

Alonso really did a good job convincing people that he took a Fiat Punto with an aftermarket spoiler into championship contention in 2012.

ehh. Fernando didn't somehow con his rival's boss into praising him.If your rival's boss is praising you, it means you are actually doing a very good job.

[adrianjordan]

A long shot but Jenson Button might be interested in the RedBull seat. Perfect for developing and setting up the car. Also he wont trouble Verstappen and will be happy to play second fiddle.
Gasly has few highlights but after that he has been ordinary if not flashes of poor racecraft. Dont think he is quite ready yet.

I think there is less than zero chance of Button returning to F1.

I follow him on Instagram and he seems to be loving his new career in GT cars.

[sAx]

Lets test that hypothesis then shall we?? Horner said similar in his podcast, that Renault don't give Red Bull the best product (engines), ostensibly of the like they fully pay for and expect to receive a first-class service from. He said if he was in Renault's position he would do exactly the same and as such the excuses for poor performance were all Abiteboul's!! Not a trick question but how many races have Renault won this year against customer Red Bull, using a superior specified product to the like that they supposedly save for those lacking intimate knowledge? Quite a huge elephant in that Red Bull room!

There's no need to test any hypothesis, because it's common-sense. Evidently, RedBull have overcome many deficits versus their supplier due to having built an exceptional chassis with very good aero. There are areas though where Renault as their own supplier have their own advantages that are confirmed by both teams too:

1.) fuel maximization
The Renault works team has supposedly a greater output due to being optimized for different fuels that RedBull doesn't use.

2.) packaging (MGU-K)
Renault upgraded to a spec2 MGU-K unit that requires new packaging that is not easy to fulfill. Obviously, not a problem for the works-team because they designed the part according to their own requirements, but for a customer any change has bigger consequences. McLaren stated too that the packaging requirements of the spec-2 MGU-K unit is quite demanding and opted to run without it initially at first too. RedBull still aren't using it. One can assume it isn't a plug & play part.

People need to understand that this formula isn't about simply fitting an engine to a car anymore. These new engines are called POWER-UNITS for a reason. They are large, they are heavy and they are incredibly complex with far reaching demands to the car. It's not just an engine, it's an ICE, a MGU-H, MGU-K, cooling, battery etc. Aero is linked to packaging. Packaging is linked to cooling. Cooling is linked to performance and reliability. Performance and reliability is linked to how well you fare on the track and across the season. A works-team, a supplier, a power-unit manufacturer can make full use of this because they can design both car and power-unit as one perfectly balanced item. They have full insight of all parameters, they know the exact cooling requirements under all situations, they have the best insight on reliability and therefore can design the car around that power-unit. They also have a clear and intimate knowledge of the development path or can choose this according to their own requirements, not the requirements of their clients.

A client such as RedBull or McLaren don't have this. They are mere clients. They design the car according to the data their supplier supplies them. They'll never have the same insight the works-team does.

Succeeding in this formula is all about optimizing all parts, all factors. This is where Mercedes has succeeded and where Ferrari is now succeeding too. Perfect integration between car and power-unit. Not perfect integration means a compromise and compromise means hitting below the potential of the package.

Which bit of my question did you not understand? Your rather lengthy tome appears to lack the very common sense you bleat about!

[makecry]

Lets test that hypothesis then shall we?? Horner said similar in his podcast, that Renault don't give Red Bull the best product (engines), ostensibly of the like they fully pay for and expect to receive a first-class service from. He said if he was in Renault's position he would do exactly the same and as such the excuses for poor performance were all Abiteboul's!! Not a trick question but how many races have Renault won this year against customer Red Bull, using a superior specified product to the like that they supposedly save for those lacking intimate knowledge? Quite a huge elephant in that Red Bull room!

There's no need to test any hypothesis, because it's common-sense. Evidently, RedBull have overcome many deficits versus their supplier due to having built an exceptional chassis with very good aero. There are areas though where Renault as their own supplier have their own advantages that are confirmed by both teams too:

1.) fuel maximization
The Renault works team has supposedly a greater output due to being optimized for different fuels that RedBull doesn't use.

2.) packaging (MGU-K)
Renault upgraded to a spec2 MGU-K unit that requires new packaging that is not easy to fulfill. Obviously, not a problem for the works-team because they designed the part according to their own requirements, but for a customer any change has bigger consequences. McLaren stated too that the packaging requirements of the spec-2 MGU-K unit is quite demanding and opted to run without it initially at first too. RedBull still aren't using it. One can assume it isn't a plug & play part.

People need to understand that this formula isn't about simply fitting an engine to a car anymore. These new engines are called POWER-UNITS for a reason. They are large, they are heavy and they are incredibly complex with far reaching demands to the car. It's not just an engine, it's an ICE, a MGU-H, MGU-K, cooling, battery etc. Aero is linked to packaging. Packaging is linked to cooling. Cooling is linked to performance and reliability. Performance and reliability is linked to how well you fare on the track and across the season. A works-team, a supplier, a power-unit manufacturer can make full use of this because they can design both car and power-unit as one perfectly balanced item. They have full insight of all parameters, they know the exact cooling requirements under all situations, they have the best insight on reliability and therefore can design the car around that power-unit. They also have a clear and intimate knowledge of the development path or can choose this according to their own requirements, not the requirements of their clients.

A client such as RedBull or McLaren don't have this. They are mere clients. They design the car according to the data their supplier supplies them. They'll never have the same insight the works-team does.

Succeeding in this formula is all about optimizing all parts, all factors. This is where Mercedes has succeeded and where Ferrari is now succeeding too. Perfect integration between car and power-unit. Not perfect integration means a compromise and compromise means hitting below the potential of the package.

Which bit of my question did you not understand? Your rather lengthy tome appears to lack the very common sense you bleat about!

Lol. The irony. You do realize that the Renault Team had less than half the employees Red Bull had till as late as beginning of 2017? You do realize that they are still in the rebuilding stage? Common sense, no?

[carisi2k]

Obviously Red Bull didn't give him everything he wanted because he left for Renault.

I have to think that with their relationship with Renault as it was at the end of 2017 that a straight cut and run from Renault would have been best for Red Bull because they have lost a year by not moving to Honda in 2018 along with Toro Rosso and without being able to prove how good the Honda is to Daniel they have lost him as well.

If you go back and find some of my posts in other threads at the end of last year and the start of this year. You will see that I was constantly calling on Red Bull to cut and run and so you will see that I am not saying these things with hindsight but with foresight.

It was so clear from the announcement of the Toro Rosso hookup that Red Bull was going to be using Honda in 2019 and so Red Bull have cost themselves a year (and a 2018 winning driver) in which they could have been cultivating a great working relationship with Honda just because they still had a contract with Renault.

As much as I like the Red Bull team they have made some significant operational blunders over the last year. Sticking with Renault who they knew couldn't build a championship winning PU in 2018 just to prove what we all knew that they were going to blow away the factory Renault and the Mclaren on the track in 2018. Not being able to prove to Daniel that the Honda could be competitive while he was still under contract is another. No upcoming rising stars in the junior ranks to replace Daniel in case he left is another one. Not being able to control max and his recklessness which resulted in the incident in Baku.

[iotar__]

Obviously Red Bull didn't give him everything he wanted because he left for Renault.

Ricciardo making demands is not likely in RB world, IMO it was a combination of:
- making Sixth Sense or Seventh Place (depending on the car ) look less than stellar and thus getting a threat of classic RB nr 2 driver treatment
- age, not sure but I think that's how a "youth" brand operates, maybe not for next season but in the longer perspective,
- connected to the above but always matters: money. If they paid him a lot, only rumours about it.

- Yearly common sentiment that didn't yet materialize - engine or not Renault with all the money, resources and engine/chassis integration can't suck forever.

[TwanV]

Obviously Red Bull didn't give him everything he wanted because he left for Renault.

Ricciardo making demands is not likely in RB world, IMO it was a combination of:
- making Sixth Sense or Seventh Place (depending on the car ) look less than stellar and thus getting a threat of classic RB nr 2 driver treatment
- age, not sure but I think that's how a "youth" brand operates, maybe not for next season but in the longer perspective,
- connected to the above but always matters: money. If they paid him a lot, only rumours about it.

- Yearly common sentiment that didn't yet materialize - engine or not Renault with all the money, resources and engine/chassis integration can't suck forever.

hmmmm it happened before. big brand, one word, six letters

[Wouter]

Obviously Red Bull didn't give him everything he wanted because he left for Renault.

RB gave him everything he wanted. Horner:

“Daniel’s had conversations with (Red Bull owner) Dietrich (Mateschitz), with myself, with (team adviser) Helmut (Marko) and we’ve bent over backwards to make it happen. But if someone’s heart’s not really in it … it’s felt like that. In the end we gave Daniel everything he wanted and asked for and it still wasn’t enough.".

“It wasn’t about money, it wasn’t about status, it wasn’t about position or commitment or duration. “I could understand if it was to Mercedes or Ferrari,” he added. “But it’s an enormous risk at this stage in his career.

“We were even prepared to do a one-year agreement so he was available to Ferrari and Mercedes should they come knocking in 12 months time.”

“The competition between he and Max is intense. Max is growing stronger and stronger and I think Daniel has decided the timing is right for him to check out and try something else …"

[MtthsMlw]

Gasly confirmed!

[Morteza]

Yup!
https://twitter.com/redbullracing/statu ... 88000?s=19

[lio007]

Wow...just saw Dr. Marko on RedBulls ServusTV.

They still can't quite believe that RIC is going to Renault, and is quite hard to understand from their perspective and they are sad About it.

Some Details from negotiations:
# negotiations were tough
# Marko set together with RIC for About 2 hours before the Austrian GP to discuss the contract, at this stage it looked promising
# after the Austrian GP they discussed again, Red Bull made improvements in the contract, again at this stage it looked promising
# at the Hungarian GP Marko had the Impression everything is finalized and they agreed that RIC is going to put ink on paper on Tuesday after the GP, but it did not happen
# and suddenly on Wednesday he got a phonecall from RIC that he's going to Renault....Marko was very, very surprised

But nevertheless, they are satisfied with Gasly driving for RBR in 2019 and Looking Forward to it.

And Marko came just in time back from Honda in Japan. He presented them the Driver choice and Honda is happy with it. He says they (RBR) have faith in Honda, their financial ressources, their engineers and their amazing Research Center in Sakura (this one must be really impressive).

[carisi2k]

RB gave him everything he wanted. Horner:

“Daniel’s had conversations with (Red Bull owner) Dietrich (Mateschitz), with myself, with (team adviser) Helmut (Marko) and we’ve bent over backwards to make it happen. But if someone’s heart’s not really in it … it’s felt like that. In the end we gave Daniel everything he wanted and asked for and it still wasn’t enough.".

“It wasn’t about money, it wasn’t about status, it wasn’t about position or commitment or duration. “I could understand if it was to Mercedes or Ferrari,” he added. “But it’s an enormous risk at this stage in his career.

“We were even prepared to do a one-year agreement so he was available to Ferrari and Mercedes should they come knocking in 12 months time.”

“The competition between he and Max is intense. Max is growing stronger and stronger and I think Daniel has decided the timing is right for him to check out and try something else …"

As much as Christian says it he is obviously still in shock at Daniel leaving them and Red Bull obviously couldn't give Daniel everything he wanted because if they could then he would have re signed with Red Bull. The most obvious thing that they couldn't give him was their word that Max isn't the next chosen one and that they wouldn't start favouring him over Daniel. Something which they are clearly in the process of doing since they blamed both of them for baku instead of only Max for swerving left, right and centre to prevent Daniel from over taking him.

It is a risk for sure but for A$35 million a year it is a risk worth taking for 2 years when maybe a Mercedes seat might be open in 2021 if Lewis retires.