VW diesel cars fallout

[strad]

where did you come up with that?
From a pro diesel site?

[djos]

where did you come up with that?
From a pro diesel site?

Or a coal rolling event?

[rgava]

where did you come up with that?
From a pro diesel site?

Or a coal rolling event?

Technical facts!
German university studies.
I will try to see if there is online and post links.

[djos]

where did you come up with that?
From a pro diesel site?

Or a coal rolling event?

Technical facts!
German university studies.
I will try to see if there is online and post links.

So a study paid for by the same companies that thought gassing monkeys with diesel fumes was a good idea?

[roon]

where did you come up with that?
From a pro diesel site?

Or a coal rolling event?

That tuning scene probably emits more NOx and particulates than all the prosecuted VWs combined. Then there's all the ship and semi emissions that these problem VWs operate in the exhaust of... Top job prosecutors. I suppose this is like when the IRS does high profile celebrity tax evasion cases. PR with a decent cash grab.

[rgava]

https://www.transportenvironment.org/si ... fing_0.pdf

"Petrol cars with uncontrolled gasoline direct injection (GDI) engines produce even higher number of particles than modern diesels that are now fitted with a filter"

EU supported institution, for sure a pro diesel site.

[djos]

https://www.transportenvironment.org/si ... fing_0.pdf

"Petrol cars with uncontrolled gasoline direct injection (GDI) engines produce even higher number of particles than modern diesels that are now fitted with a filter"

EU supported institution, for sure a pro diesel site.

Yes but which particles? That's the killer, literally, diesels produce specific known carcinogenic particles that aren't produced by petrol engines.

[rgava]

https://www.ifkm.kit.edu/downloads/F160 ... kandal.pdf

It's from a professor from a German University. So I guess it's very neutral.

Main messages:

— CO2-Emissions of a modern Diesel engine are less than the ones of an electric vehicle if you use the current German energy mix of fossil and regenerative energy as a basis.

— the intake air contains more particles than the exhaust of an Diesel engine if you look at the air quality in Stuttgart Germany.

[rgava]

https://www.transportenvironment.org/si ... fing_0.pdf

"Petrol cars with uncontrolled gasoline direct injection (GDI) engines produce even higher number of particles than modern diesels that are now fitted with a filter"

EU supported institution, for sure a pro diesel site.

Yes but which particles? That's the killer, literally, diesels produce specific known carcinogenic particles that aren't produced by petrol engines.

Can you support your statement?
What do you know about the type of particles emitted by GDI engines?
Why do you believe they are less harmful than the ones from a diesel?
Why the particles from the combustion of one hydrocarbon fuel (diesel) will be so different from the ones from another one (gasoline)?

The problem is the regulators don't care about gasoline particles emissions and they are not being measured.
But modern GDI is closer to diesel than we think and their emissions also.

[Tommy Cookers]

GDI particulate is better than CI's because gasoline burns readily and diesel doesn't
diesel particulate carries on its surface aldehydes from incomplete reactions - these are precursors to carcinogens
whether from diesels or modern-day cooks baking with oils they wrongly think are better than the old-style cooking 'fats'

new diesel's exhaust is cleaner than induced 'atmospheric' air because the latter is packed with older diesel's exhaust
though in the UK we pay people to heat their homes by burning wood - this is 75% of London's airborne particulate
using wood whose carcinogen potential has by law already been released into the atmosphere via so-called 'drying'
a lawmaker's response attempting to distance wood burning from the cancer charge

VW and some other 'small' diesel people eg Renault & associates purge their stored NOx by using fuel as the reductant
this is a tradeoff between high particulate/high fuel consumption or high NOx release
VW hid their NOx release from the regulators and their (high-speed) fuel consumption from the buyers

but as I have said for 50 years NOx hardly happens in city/urban driving of cars - (it does in trucks & vans of course)
one benefit of having a 150 hp 'small' engined diesel car running at 5-10 hp
the recent UK campaigners test results (despite claiming to expose the diesel NOx 'problem') actually confirm that

btw our liberal toshfest BBC has just said that air pollution is still decreasing (presumably instructed by their legal dept)

[strad]

It's from a professor from a German University. So I guess it's very neutral.

.
No I wouldn't think that this German professor has a bias in favor of VW.

Diesels have been shown to produce particulates that are carcinogenic where as modern petrol engines are clean by comparison.
Obviously we should be moving away from any ICE. As much as I love my high horsepower petrol burning internal combustion autos, it does just make sense especially in the urban environment to move toward a more non polluting propulsion method.

[rgava]

but as I have said for 50 years NOx hardly happens in city/urban driving of cars - (it does in trucks & vans of course)
one benefit of having a 150 hp 'small' engined diesel car running at 5-10 hp
the recent UK campaigners test results (despite claiming to expose the diesel NOx 'problem') actually confirm that

Yes, you are right.

I have read somewhere that a high percentage of NOx in cities is coming from domestic heaters. I cannot confirm it but you can see some brands commercializing "low NOx" water heaters, so something will be happening in this sense.

Back on topic, I honestly believe Diesel is not "the demon" and gasoline is not "an angel" both of them has negative aspects on pollutants. In my opinion, in the last time more technical effort has been put on diesel and the technology is available to make them acceptable (obviously without cheating as VW did).

We all know that current combustion concepts being developed and applied on F1 are producing a considerable amount of NOx (result of a lean combustion). I'm not sure if current street GDI engines are not producing a considerable amount of NOx at low charge, as the combustion of the gasoline is more reactive than the diesel and temperature can be high enough to generate NOx with excess air.

I think we have to work to make the ICE cleaner both gasoline and diesels to take advantages of the best of both and mitigate or even neglect the worst of them.
And people on a technology forum like this should be discussing how to make it happening and not if they are to be banned or not.

[rgava]

GDI particulate is better than CI's because gasoline burns readily and diesel doesn't
diesel particulate carries on its surface aldehydes from incomplete reactions - these are precursors to carcinogens
whether from diesels or modern-day cooks baking with oils they wrongly think are better than the old-style cooking 'fats'

I don't know honestly.

Correct me if I'm wrong but particles are always the result of incomplete reactions, so perhaps we will find the same aldehydes on the particles of a GDI engine.

[rgava]

It's from a professor from a German University. So I guess it's very neutral.

.
No I wouldn't think that this German professor has a bias in favor of VW.

Have you been lately in Germany?
There is a strong criticism about what VW did.
There is public opinion and politicians against diesel as in other countries.

So, I would not take it as straightforward as "if it is a German professor, he will be lobbying in favour of VW and diesel"
Specially because the conclusions are from a scientific publication and they can be rebated on the scientific community and they put their reputation in play when they publish something like this.

But I accept your scepticism.

[Big Tea]

I still often wonder if we had gone down the lean/clean burn rout at the time they legislated cat converters.
Some manufacturers said at the time we would be better off allowing them time to work on it. It was just about the time the electronics were becoming up to doing it but pressure won again