Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[zeffman]

Inject pressurized air stream into the turbine housing and drive the overrun of -H while harvesting to harvest more and quicker but also when needed to drive harder/faster during qualy or race situations.
Not really sure, but I think the concept has legs. Compressed air canisters are available in a variety or pressures and light weight materials.
I am not looking to defend this as a thesis, but I wanted to contribute if i could. Hopefully this makes something click for you guys that are all significantly smarter that I am and much better with the regs. Thanks for the indulgence.

Thanks for this suggestion, this is interesting. Not sure if it would be legal under the regs (is more than one energy store, or more than one method of storage, allowed?). I recall a system by Volvo suggested for their road cars which used jets of compressed air as an anti-lag system to spool up the turbocharger more quickly (https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/ ... -may-2016/).

This could potentially be used to drive the turbocharger (and thus MGU-H --> Battery) by directing a jet of compressed air directly at the turbine blades whilst leaving the wastegates open for the exhaust gases to bypass the turbine. This would obviously require a method of recharging the compressed air over time.

Again, it might be a question of whether the method of energy storage is allowed in the rules (or rather explicitly forbidden by them). As some have pointed out, an overweight MGU-H is technically a flywheel storage system....

Interesting post, thanks.

[flexcon]

In case you want to listen to that noise again. Here it's very clear.
Everyone said it's just the wastegates opening but now there's a report of AMuS asking a Merc engineer if that could be the case and he denied it, saying it is some other kind of valve somewhere in/around the TC.
https://streamable.com/9h3fq
It's apparent at the beginning of the acceleration and ends somewhere in the middle.

first i thought it was a audio artifact....but that is really obvious now
it comes up so abruptly.

2017. Renault engine. Similar? both suddenly turn on and then off again.

[Dr. Acula]

Ok, I am a lurker, but I have been thinking of this and reading this thread for a while. The post about compressed air, by Phil, has me REALLY thinking now. The post right below by MtthsMlw with the Ferrari sound for sure sounds like compressed air blow off to me.
Combine those with the known method of MGU-H overrun with the wastegates open or partial open to power the -K directly and/or -K + ICE and and/or ES and you could conceivably run same boost and fuel as regular mode but gain full use of -K.
Inject pressurized air stream into the turbine housing and drive the overrun of -H while harvesting to harvest more and quicker but also when needed to drive harder/faster during qualy or race situations.
Not really sure, but I think the concept has legs. Compressed air canisters are available in a variety or pressures and light weight materials.
I am not looking to defend this as a thesis, but I wanted to contribute if i could. Hopefully this makes something click for you guys that are all significantly smarter that I am and much better with the regs. Thanks for the indulgence.

Here is a link to a video of a similar POC:
https://youtu.be/iTgcHp582rE

I am amazed by the voltage and amperage he gets out of this so easily.

Would be against the rules. It's not allowed to "add" something to the exhaust gases upstream of the turbine.

5.8.1 With the exception of incidental leakage through joints (either into or out of the system) and power unit breather fluids, all and only the fluids entering the compressor inlet and fuel injectors must exit from the engine exhaust system.

You could in theory use an airtank as a kind of buffertank by storing some of the compressed air after the compressor stage. That wouldn't violate any rules as far as i know. But that also means you would be unable to reach higher pressures than what the compressor stage can deliver and i doubt this would be suffiecent.

[Tommy Cookers]

Fuels must use a restricted a combination of chemicals found in street/commercial gasoline. This has been the case for over a decade. How many new untested combinations can be still available. It would seem a good computer model would make quick work of this.
I believe the max octane number is set by the rules.
Brian

there's about 12000 constituents in gasoline (mixed over millions of years by nature and not fully seperable)
notice the FIA doesn't list them
many have never been isolated and studied eg for octane number (as others said this is unlimited in F1 so-called 'pump' fuel)
or even for heat content or combustibility at lean mixture conditions
that's a lot of combinations that haven't been tested (even in WW2)
WW2 wasn't based on a fuel rate limit and a fuel allocation limit - but F1 is (more or less for the first time ever)
it's quite possible that a killer constituent can currently only be made in quantity enough for 1 team

a very high CR is more useful at very lean mixtures than it was with traditional or conventional mixtures
useful in an efficiency formula in giving a more efficient cycle ie closer to 'ideal' air standard efficiency

[subcritical71]

In case you want to listen to that noise again. Here it's very clear.
Everyone said it's just the wastegates opening but now there's a report of AMuS asking a Merc engineer if that could be the case and he denied it, saying it is some other kind of valve somewhere in/around the TC.
https://streamable.com/9h3fq
It's apparent at the beginning of the acceleration and ends somewhere in the middle.

In the video this location this is occuring doesn't seem like one which would require full power. I'm thinking they are traction limited there. But I wonder if this could be a couple of things all at one.... electric supercharging mode, but more than the engine can swallow (or more than is necessary for the conditions). Can the compressor discharge be routed into wastegate or turbine exhaust? If so, maybe they are spinning up the turbo to provide excess air, routing that excess air into either the wastegate or turbine exhaust, which then blows the rear wing -> allowing higher acceleration out of the relatively slow speed turns.

I've looked at the regs quickly and can't see anything that would not allow this scenario.

[atanatizante]

Is there possible that MGU-H to harvest 120kW constantly from fuel without being efficient? I mean not in every second per lap. Let`s say we have a 100 seconds lap track but for some 20 sec. this is the total amount of braking phase when MGU-K is harvesting. So MGU-H doesn`t need to harvest each ever second per lap just only 80 seconds (btw. could it harvest even when the car is braking?). If that could be possible and Ferrari could harvest 120kW constantly for 80 sec. then they could produce some 9,6MJ plus 2MJ form MGU-K for a total of staggering 11,6MJ per lap. These numbers are theoretical but is it doable maybe in Q3 PU mode producing electricity from fuel in an inefficient mode?

Maybe Ferrari could do it in Q3, at the start or restart of the race. That means they have an aggressive and risky strategy deployment mode which priorities those above phases in the race, knowing that later in the race they have to do some heavy fuel savings …

[saviour stivala]

5.8.2 All and only the turbine exit exhaust gases must pass through the turbine tailpipe. and all and only the wastegate exhaust gases must pass through the wastegate tailpipe's/

[roon]

Read somewhere that they refused the new spec fuel which contains a very very expensive additive that those 2 teams cannot afford.....that in turn i suspect is a built in reason for different engine management software.....

Consider how much more fuel is used on engine test stands than within racing engines. Most fuel should be used by the engine manufacturers during development. If the fuel was prohibitively expensive, surely Ferrari would also be challenged by the cost, since they would be consuming multiple times more than the customer teams.

Unless the expensive additive has well understood properties and is safe to use only during grands prix and during limited testing cycles, although this seems unlikely to me.

Regarding the wastegate sound: are the customer engines making a similar sound?

[subcritical71]

5.8.2 All and only the turbine exit exhaust gases must pass through the turbine tailpipe. and all and only the wastegate exhaust gases must pass through the wastegate tailpipe's/

This excess air is allowed to exit via the engine exhaust system (according to 5.8.1). The only modification to my theory would be that it would need to be upstream of the wastegates and turbine, but downstream of the engine. A little more complicated to implement but still doable. The compressor is being electrically driven anyway so the cooling effect on the exhaust gases is not of concern.

5.8 Exhaust systems :
5.8.1 With the exception of incidental leakage through joints (either into or out of the system) and
power unit breather fluids, all and only the fluids entering the compressor inlet and fuel
injectors must exit from the engine exhaust system.
5.8.2 Engine exhaust systems must have only a single turbine tailpipe exit and either one or two
wastegate tailpipe exits which must all be rearward facing and through which all exhaust gases
must pass. All and only the turbine exit exhaust gases must pass through the turbine tailpipe
and all and only the wastegate exhaust gases must pass through the wastegate tailpipe(s).
None of the tailpipes may be contained within any of the other tailpipes.

[MtthsMlw]

Regarding the wastegate sound: are the customer engines making a similar sound?

Yes but not as loud, distinguishable and often imo.
At 2:35 for example.

[roon]

Bleeding high velocity air into the wastegate circuit might provide a way to lower exhaust manifold pressure beyond what is possible by using plain wastegate pipes and valves alone. An 'enhanced wastegate.'

One source of such air would be the compressor.

Another would be the turbine. I've been wondering (viewtopic.php?p=782450#p782450) if reverse flow through the tailpipe would be feasible. Using the turbine as a pump during wastegate-open scenarios.

Regardless, bleeding air into the wastegate circuit, reducing exhaust manifold pressure and reducing the highest pressure of the exhaust pulse waves, translating it all into a more uniform high velocity gas jet flow through the tailpipes; might explain the unique sound.

[subcritical71]

Bleeding high velocity air into the wastegate might provide a way to lower exhaust manifold pressure beyond what is possible by using plain wastegate pipes and valves alone. An 'enhanced wastegate.'

One source of such air would be the compressor.

Another would be the turbine. I've been wondering (viewtopic.php?p=782450#p782450) if reverse flow through the tailpipe would be feasible. Using the turbine as a compressor during wastegate-open scenarios.

I'll take a look at your link, but are you thinking the air could be using the venturi effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect) to siphon the exhaust gasses and then therefore lower the exhaust system pressure (making the ICE even more efficient? I thought I saw a regulation against that, but will check.

[roon]

...are you thinking the air could be using the venturi effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect) to siphon the exhaust gasses and then therefore lower the exhaust system pressure...

Yes.

[MtthsMlw]

What would be the downsides or limitations of that system? When on track would you use it and what would hinder you from using it? (trying to make sense out of when on track the noise occurs)

[atanatizante]

Just brainstorming a bit...

From what I gather, there seems to be a feeling that Ferrari can pull out vastly more performance on a lap per lap basis, but only for a very limited amount of time. AMuS did an analysis of Spa in 2017 and 2018 where they conclude that even if you factor in that 2017 Mercedes was probably running less wing and in 2018 more, there was something magical about how that Ferrari continued to pull/accelerate even after he got out of the tow. The end speed was similar, but the Ferrari got there much quicker. Some also report that there is a screeching sound that can be heard on very few instances, possibly when Ferrari deploys what ever they have at full tilt.

- Mercedes feels that this advantage can not be attributed to aero, as if that were the case, the benefit would be felt on a more consistent basis and not a momentary boost. It perhaps also wouldn't explain that weird sound.

- there is only so much that you can store and use (legally) from the battery system. Assuming both Mercedes and Ferrari have a fairly good idea on where and how to deploy that energy at its best, I can't see how it could be in that area either. Not by the amount of performance boost Ferrari can get out.

- fuel... well, if it's within the fuel, they should be able to deploy it more often and not for the same duration at all times. At least assuming they have just the one fuel they are using and not a separate tank with "special" fuel. (which would be illegal anyway).

What about if Ferrari somehow store air pressure that they can deploy? Would there be some benefit if the quantity of pressurized air would be large enough, dense enough and could be somehow deployed to increase boost on some level? I presume what's at odds with this, is that at the end, you are still going to be limited by the amount of fuel flow you can use. Could pressurized air be somehow be used differently? Just throwing this one out there...

AMuS said there were 6 decisive seconds when Vettel passed Lewis and hints it's all down on deployment. Maybe it's Ferrari doesn't have a longer deployment phase but a later than usual one. We know that MGU-K by the rules it's allowed to kick in just after car is reaching 100km/h but in their case after let's say 150 or 200km/h. That way allows them a delayed deployment phase when is strategically needed. Seeing that Lewis after Radillion was coming out of "juice" and Vettel passing him as he was standing still could force us to think that Ferrari has a longer deployment phase (as Rosberg implied with that 25% more battery energy). In fact maybe it's a delayed deployment phase knowing they have a very good traction on low speed corners. Traction is more down to rear suspension hence rake setup and torque. Knowing the MGU-K isn't allowed to kick in bellow 100km/h that means is all down to ICE and more so down to fuel and Shell which has been investing a lot of cash to deliver and make big gains. We don't have to underestimate fuel advantages any more even though they are limited by some constrained rules and only 3 times per season for bringing new fuels. It will became like a similar tyre war for Petronas company saying they will go head hunting even on Universities in order to venture in new and radical ideas coming from the people who has no pressure to deliver like they have...