2018 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 31 Aug - 2 Sep

[santos]

Didn't the dummy pit stops were banned? Mercedes have done that again at Monza. It's not the first time they do that...

[foxmulder_ms]

Merc deliberately trolled Ferrari with their formation lap at Monza, Ferrari acted with similar over the top celebrations after Silverstone.
The FIA should consider reigning in such behaviour before weaker minded fans take it as cue for hooliganism.

It is deliberate but it is not trolling. They have been doing it for ages now. A minuscule percentage of fans are too sensitive it seems.

[foxmulder_ms]

...
On another note if Vettel's mistakes do cost him the WDC then this is arguably the 2nd in a row he will have lost (although last year there were mechanical issues too). Surely some people at Ferrari must be thinking if Alonso was there they would have won, or would have been much closer. This may sound ridiculous, but if Vettel messes up again over the next race or two, could we see Ferrari make a dramatic U-turn and sign up Alonso to be his team mate for 2019? If not next year then surely if Vettel doesn't deliver in 2019 they would consider him for 2020?

Ferrari is in deep crisis with drivers. Kimi is approaching the end of his career, while Vettel's mistakes cost them the title last year and could do so this year as well.

Its not impossible that Leclerc might actually be coming in to both replace Vettel and be tutored for a year by Kimi. The reason for that suspicion is that in the last few races Ferrari has let go of aggressively using Kimi to back Vettel, letting them race instead, even when it could be costly (like last weekend). It almost looks like they are wanting to see how an unfettered Kimi would do in a fair fight with Vettel.

Maybe its a long shot, but who knows?

haha.. nice whatif story

[iotar__]

How are these not 2 defensive moves on the straight against a tow?

Compare Raikkonen - Hamilton defending or any other overtake.

Verstappen should get another penalty for not understanding basics of rules and racing. FIA allowed him to cheat so many times, including changing the rules afterwards to cover cheating, that you can't blame only him.

[siskue2005]

How are these not 2 defensive moves on the straight against a tow?
https://i.imgur.com/stIxSXM.jpg
Compare Raikkonen - Hamilton defending or any other overtake.

Verstappen should get another penalty for not understanding basics of rules and racing. FIA allowed him to cheat so many times, including changing the rules afterwards to cover cheating, that you can't blame only him.

the problem is not that he doesnt know about the rules....he knows them but the FIA has let him free reign all these years, so he abuses them.

[GrandAxe]

...
On another note if Vettel's mistakes do cost him the WDC then this is arguably the 2nd in a row he will have lost (although last year there were mechanical issues too). Surely some people at Ferrari must be thinking if Alonso was there they would have won, or would have been much closer. This may sound ridiculous, but if Vettel messes up again over the next race or two, could we see Ferrari make a dramatic U-turn and sign up Alonso to be his team mate for 2019? If not next year then surely if Vettel doesn't deliver in 2019 they would consider him for 2020?

Ferrari is in deep crisis with drivers. Kimi is approaching the end of his career, while Vettel's mistakes cost them the title last year and could do so this year as well.

Its not impossible that Leclerc might actually be coming in to both replace Vettel and be tutored for a year by Kimi. The reason for that suspicion is that in the last few races Ferrari has let go of aggressively using Kimi to back Vettel, letting them race instead, even when it could be costly (like last weekend). It almost looks like they are wanting to see how an unfettered Kimi would do in a fair fight with Vettel.

Maybe its a long shot, but who knows?

haha.. nice whatif story

Do you have something "non-whatif" to explain Ferrari's recent behaviour? It would be nice to read your thoughts (if any).

It is deliberate but it is not trolling. They have been doing it for ages now. A minuscule percentage of fans are too sensitive it seems.

Especially with the radio message; if it was deliberate, how then was it not trolling? That sort of radio message is something that is definitely not of the sort that's been going on for ages.

There was no need for the put-down on F1 fans either.

[Wynters]

You're able to see that Hamilton has a weakness, let's call ego as you did but that's your word. Yet, you're unable to see Vettel's problem even though you're writing down the very answer to the question you're asking yourself.

Perhaps 'Id' would be a better word and I suspect all successful sportspeople share that 'weakness'. If you don't have that innate confidence and drive to beat your peers then I think it would be difficult to sustain the extreme level of commitment and performance needed. In order to maintain that, I think you need to be able to prove to yourself that you can outperform your peers. Easiest way to do that is to beat them, worst outcome is to have them outperform you.

In Spa there was no schooling, it was a superior car running away with it.

I suspect Hamilton thinks he could've defended better initially and he definitely performed worse at the restart despite having managed to 'go' with Vettel when the leader floored it. His performance here will have thoroughly buried any slight doubts that might have begun gnawing at him following those mistakes.

Vettel winding up sideways attempting an overtake is something that he's done plenty during his career.

As have plenty of drivers. I have quite a lot of sympathy when it's done in the heat of the moment and during the unanticipated dueling a driver finds himself operating beyond his skill / decision making ability for an instant (see Max and Bottas this race and numerous examples in previous GPs) but I struggle to understand the lack of scenario 'gaming' done to cover eventualities on a first lap or a SC restart. There are essentially two likely overtaking points and it appears that Vettel and Ferrari didn't bother to think about either of them beforehand. It just boggles my mind.

Max's decision to continue to screw himself after the incident whilst simultaneously not hurting Bottas in any way confuses me the same way. It's outside the instant the mistake was made so surely logic should kick in and, if it habitually won't, then that should've been identified as an issue and (much as Smedley did with Massa) his engineer should be placed in a recognised position to handle it for him. i.e. "Stop being an idiot, you aren't hurting him at all you are only hurting yourself." It's genuinely concerning that the engineer was obviously convinced that Max was too childish to accept not only his failure but also to accept that blocking Bottas would cost Bottas nothing. Otherwise he would have explained it to him and Max would've finished fourth.

[Edax]

Apparenly the first chicane. Vettel does the exact same thing to Hamilton when they enter the corner. In fact Hamilton has two wheels over the white line and there is not much but a hair between their front tires.

But I do agree, squeezing an opponent before a corner is fair, but these actions were too much. A cars width should be measured between the car and the inside of the white line, not whatever driveable surface is out there. So the penalty is OK.

But I also can understand. The Red Bull is currently in no mans land, 30 seconds adrift of the next car. Ves could land a comfortable fifth in any race, with the engine tuned down. But you would only see the car at the start and in the result table.

Smart thing, points wise, would have been to have Bottas pass on lap 5 and concentrate on fending of vettel. But by taking the fight to Mercedes, it may have cost him 2 points, but gained RB 30 mins of tv coverage, and showed his possible future (2020) employer Mercedes, that he has the measure on Bottas. But in order to be able to do that he has to take everything out of the car and the rules there is, since the car is not quick enough.

You can only squeeze if the driver is slightly behind, not in the braking zone and you MUST leave enough space to hold a cars width AND you must show no intent to cause a collision.

verstappen broke all those requirements.

I think it is very hard to come to a conclusion when we cannot even agree on who was in front. Pity.

Just to clarify my stance. If you read back my posts, I never disputed the penalty for not giving enough room, and I clearly define room as the stuff inside the white lines. But I do dispute that squeezing your opponent right to the limit when entering or exiting a corner is not part of fair racing, and a sign of a devious mental issue.

I don’t know why I feel the need to discuss it. Perhaps it is because I am from an era where the only undisputed track limit was the line of trees lining it, and I hate F1 evolving in a sport which is more regulated than curling.

Anyway. To show how it should be done, by the master himself (and no penalty).

[Restomaniac]

You're able to see that Hamilton has a weakness, let's call ego as you did but that's your word. Yet, you're unable to see Vettel's problem even though you're writing down the very answer to the question you're asking yourself.

Perhaps 'Id' would be a better word and I suspect all successful sportspeople share that 'weakness'. If you don't have that innate confidence and drive to beat your peers then I think it would be difficult to sustain the extreme level of commitment and performance needed. In order to maintain that, I think you need to be able to prove to yourself that you can outperform your peers. Easiest way to do that is to beat them, worst outcome is to have them outperform you.

In Spa there was no schooling, it was a superior car running away with it.

I suspect Hamilton thinks he could've defended better initially and he definitely performed worse at the restart despite having managed to 'go' with Vettel when the leader floored it. His performance here will have thoroughly buried any slight doubts that might have begun gnawing at him following those mistakes.

Vettel winding up sideways attempting an overtake is something that he's done plenty during his career.

As have plenty of drivers. I have quite a lot of sympathy when it's done in the heat of the moment and during the unanticipated dueling a driver finds himself operating beyond his skill / decision making ability for an instant (see Max and Bottas this race and numerous examples in previous GPs) but I struggle to understand the lack of scenario 'gaming' done to cover eventualities on a first lap or a SC restart. There are essentially two likely overtaking points and it appears that Vettel and Ferrari didn't bother to think about either of them beforehand. It just boggles my mind.

Max's decision to continue to screw himself after the incident whilst simultaneously not hurting Bottas in any way confuses me the same way. It's outside the instant the mistake was made so surely logic should kick in and, if it habitually won't, then that should've been identified as an issue and (much as Smedley did with Massa) his engineer should be placed in a recognised position to handle it for him. i.e. "Stop being an idiot, you aren't hurting him at all you are only hurting yourself." It's genuinely concerning that the engineer was obviously convinced that Max was too childish to accept not only his failure but also to accept that blocking Bottas would cost Bottas nothing. Otherwise he would have explained it to him and Max would've finished fourth.

That’s what I don’t get. Exactly who does he think he was causing an issue for?
The Stewards-Probably laughing their what-nots off over the reaction.
Bottas-definitely laughing his what-nots off and being more than happy to sit there and pick up 3rd.
Vettel-definitely laughing his what-nots off and being more than happy to make up the time and pick up 4th.

‘I know I’m going to lose time to Vettel but I don’t care’ was probably one of the strangest statements I have ever heard. It defies any logic to hurt nobody but himself and his team.

[Sieper]

After VER got the penalty it was totally impossible to keep 4th. He was always going to loose that time on the much faster Ferrari.

[Jolle]

You're able to see that Hamilton has a weakness, let's call ego as you did but that's your word. Yet, you're unable to see Vettel's problem even though you're writing down the very answer to the question you're asking yourself.

Perhaps 'Id' would be a better word and I suspect all successful sportspeople share that 'weakness'. If you don't have that innate confidence and drive to beat your peers then I think it would be difficult to sustain the extreme level of commitment and performance needed. In order to maintain that, I think you need to be able to prove to yourself that you can outperform your peers. Easiest way to do that is to beat them, worst outcome is to have them outperform you.

In Spa there was no schooling, it was a superior car running away with it.

I suspect Hamilton thinks he could've defended better initially and he definitely performed worse at the restart despite having managed to 'go' with Vettel when the leader floored it. His performance here will have thoroughly buried any slight doubts that might have begun gnawing at him following those mistakes.

Vettel winding up sideways attempting an overtake is something that he's done plenty during his career.

As have plenty of drivers. I have quite a lot of sympathy when it's done in the heat of the moment and during the unanticipated dueling a driver finds himself operating beyond his skill / decision making ability for an instant (see Max and Bottas this race and numerous examples in previous GPs) but I struggle to understand the lack of scenario 'gaming' done to cover eventualities on a first lap or a SC restart. There are essentially two likely overtaking points and it appears that Vettel and Ferrari didn't bother to think about either of them beforehand. It just boggles my mind.

Max's decision to continue to screw himself after the incident whilst simultaneously not hurting Bottas in any way confuses me the same way. It's outside the instant the mistake was made so surely logic should kick in and, if it habitually won't, then that should've been identified as an issue and (much as Smedley did with Massa) his engineer should be placed in a recognised position to handle it for him. i.e. "Stop being an idiot, you aren't hurting him at all you are only hurting yourself." It's genuinely concerning that the engineer was obviously convinced that Max was too childish to accept not only his failure but also to accept that blocking Bottas would cost Bottas nothing. Otherwise he would have explained it to him and Max would've finished fourth.

That’s what I don’t get. Exactly who does he think he was causing an issue for?
The Stewards-Probably laughing their what-nots off over the reaction.
Bottas-definitely laughing his what-nots off and being more than happy to sit there and pick up 3rd.
Vettel-definitely laughing his what-nots off and being more than happy to make up the time and pick up 4th.

‘I know I’m going to lose time to Vettel but I don’t care’ was probably one of the strangest statements I have ever heard. It defies any logic to hurt nobody but himself and his team.

I can imagine the team disagrees. RedBull likes fighters. For a driver there is a order of importance for finishing. 1. a win, 2nd in front of your team mate and 3 podium and 4 points. VER is out of contention of the WC and got his teammate covered. A podium was too far away after the penalty and points were there whatever he decided. Now he and his team can stand up tall, one of the Mercedeses needed a penalty to beat us today. Although not really true, he deserved this penalty and with a few inches more room Bottas might had a good overtake, it's the spirit they love and push.

The alternative is 20 boring drivers who won't fight, leave lots and lots of space and drive around in the exact order of their cars speed.

[Restomaniac]

After VER got the penalty it was totally impossible to keep 4th. He was always going to loose that time on the much faster Ferrari.

Even if he sat in a far quicker Bottas’ DRS/tow for a lap or so. That was where the logical thinking would take you. Max Verstappen had other ideas.

[Restomaniac]

Perhaps 'Id' would be a better word and I suspect all successful sportspeople share that 'weakness'. If you don't have that innate confidence and drive to beat your peers then I think it would be difficult to sustain the extreme level of commitment and performance needed. In order to maintain that, I think you need to be able to prove to yourself that you can outperform your peers. Easiest way to do that is to beat them, worst outcome is to have them outperform you.
I suspect Hamilton thinks he could've defended better initially and he definitely performed worse at the restart despite having managed to 'go' with Vettel when the leader floored it. His performance here will have thoroughly buried any slight doubts that might have begun gnawing at him following those mistakes.
As have plenty of drivers. I have quite a lot of sympathy when it's done in the heat of the moment and during the unanticipated dueling a driver finds himself operating beyond his skill / decision making ability for an instant (see Max and Bottas this race and numerous examples in previous GPs) but I struggle to understand the lack of scenario 'gaming' done to cover eventualities on a first lap or a SC restart. There are essentially two likely overtaking points and it appears that Vettel and Ferrari didn't bother to think about either of them beforehand. It just boggles my mind.

Max's decision to continue to screw himself after the incident whilst simultaneously not hurting Bottas in any way confuses me the same way. It's outside the instant the mistake was made so surely logic should kick in and, if it habitually won't, then that should've been identified as an issue and (much as Smedley did with Massa) his engineer should be placed in a recognised position to handle it for him. i.e. "Stop being an idiot, you aren't hurting him at all you are only hurting yourself." It's genuinely concerning that the engineer was obviously convinced that Max was too childish to accept not only his failure but also to accept that blocking Bottas would cost Bottas nothing. Otherwise he would have explained it to him and Max would've finished fourth.

That’s what I don’t get. Exactly who does he think he was causing an issue for?
The Stewards-Probably laughing their what-nots off over the reaction.
Bottas-definitely laughing his what-nots off and being more than happy to sit there and pick up 3rd.
Vettel-definitely laughing his what-nots off and being more than happy to make up the time and pick up 4th.

‘I know I’m going to lose time to Vettel but I don’t care’ was probably one of the strangest statements I have ever heard. It defies any logic to hurt nobody but himself and his team.

I can imagine the team disagrees. RedBull likes fighters. For a driver there is a order of importance for finishing. 1. a win, 2nd in front of your team mate and 3 podium and 4 points. VER is out of contention of the WC and got his teammate covered. A podium was too far away after the penalty and points were there whatever he decided. Now he and his team can stand up tall, one of the Mercedeses needed a penalty to beat us today. Although not really true, he deserved this penalty and with a few inches more room Bottas might had a good overtake, it's the spirit they love and push.

The alternative is 20 boring drivers who won't fight, leave lots and lots of space and drive around in the exact order of their cars speed.

What Verstappen did wasn’t fighting it was just poor racing AGAIN.

[strad]

How much of that was due to their failure to bring one extra set of Soft tyres?

.
I think the question should be, "How crazy is it to have to choose your tires many weeks in advance, not knowing what the weather will be?"

[strad]

I’m sorry but if you force another car to go via the polystyrene bollards into turn 1 in normal racing in Monza then you had better be ready for a penalty. I don’t care who you are.

.
There is a long history of top drivers pulling such stunts. From Farina to Senna, to Schumacher. Black Jack wasn't called that because of his gentlemanly conduct. All without penalty