2018 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, 31 Aug - 2 Sep

[TAG]

A point that's not been made, Red Bull lost two points because of Verstappen's being obstinate. Not a biggie for them, but what if he was driving for Toro Rosso? The same two points there would mean a position and potentially millions in the WCC.

The same way no one doubts Max is talented, should be the same way no one doubts that Red Bull is making a sow's ear out of how they're handling him. It's why they lost Ricciardo ultimately.

[Sieper]

He did not loose two points by being obstinate, he tried to fight for the optimal 15 points but just did not succeed in keeping Bottas at bay (not in a way that the stewards agreed with that is). After the punishment there were never any more points to be lost.

It is what RBR expects and hopes him to do, Christian Horner was interviewed pre race (on the grid) by Ziggo NL on Max's chances for the race and when asked well, you are in fifth, any hopes for improving the position or are Merc en Ferr just too strong here he answered Well, normally they are here but we have Max at the wheel and he might just be able to carry the fight to them.

They do talk this over, sure Max is still hot headed when moments like this occur and the radio message does no do him any good in that sense but as soon as the penalty was given I knew that P4 was also lost (as did Max).

[dans79]

He did not loose two points by being obstinate, he tried to fight for the optimal 15 points but just did not succeed in keeping Bottas at bay (not in a way that the stewards agreed with that is). After the punishment there were never any more points to be lost.

He lost a potential 2 points! As soon as he was given a penalty, he should have let Bottas past, slimstreamed him the best he could and then set about putting in the fastest laps he could. With his time penalty, he only finished 2.057 seconds behind Vettel. I can all but guarantee you he lost substantially more than that defending against Bottas, as you loose a lot of time defending.

This mindset is how you loos championships, and why in my opinion max will never be a WDC. Just like his dad he has lots of potential but he is to arrogant and bull headed to put it to proper use.

[Jolle]

Any driver who shows disdain for rules really doesn't have the levels of maturity required to be in such a dangerous sport. Agreed racing is a much safer business than it used to be, but lets not forget that it is rules and conventions that have made it so.

Rules are serious business. They can be the difference between life and death; a very promising driver, Jules Bianchi lost his life for a seemingly small infraction just a few short years ago. He would most likely have been the lead Ferrari driver today (since he was part of their young driver academy), perhaps fighting for the title.

Max had already been read the riot act about his driving (at that very same corner no less), but no, dude had to bump another car off the road. Its no excuse that Bottas move was pathetic. In fact, its the more reason Max didn't need to drift across the track so aggressively to block a move that would have failed anyway.
Then he went further to "punish" Bottas by gifting him the place while demoting himself two places and losing WCC points in addition. Properly blunt tool that.

If rules are rules and VER is such a risk, what about Ricciardo? divebombing and t-boning a Toro Rosso? no penalty and no one seems to care. Or Alonso in Q, all 4 wheels off track, comes back in the path or MAG, who complains and ALO laughs it off. No penalty and no one seems to care. Or a four time world champion who still can't figure out that there are more cars on track then he. Talking about double standerds...

[drunkf1fan]

Ricciardo is well liked and gets away with a hell of a lot. Earlier this year in was it bahrain, probably China, Bottas straight up jumped out of the way and left the inside completely undefended because he saw Ricciardo doing a divebomb, Bottas had no reason to change line, Ricciardo had exactly no right to try a dive bomb from there. Bottas decided he didn't want his race ended so moved out of the way but ultimately Ricciardo was saying defend and we're both out, don't and I take the position.

In Monza he did the same thing, moves from far back, little chance of success and would only work if the driver completely gave up the position and moved out of the way. Ricciardo constantly gets praised for his late braking but mostly he puts two bad options on the table and most drivers take the lesser evil. Ricciardo has absolutely pulled plenty of great moves, but his dive bombing has become a game of chicken with other drivers.

THinking back to say Hungary in 2014, maybe it was 2015, where he tried a ludicrous one on Rosberg, braked way to late, went completely off track and while I think Rosberg should have given him room to come back on, Ricciardo messed up the corner and had no right to position, he floored it, came back on and caused contact with another driver. This is the way he set himself up with other drivers and other drivers have been making life easy for Ricciardo while imo, Ricciardo gets away with bloody murder when it comes to reckless overtakes. Gasly just refused to give up and Ricciardo immediately causes two contacts one of which should certainly have been penalised.

Alonso, meh, I think what he did was silly but Magnussen was equally an idiot in that situation. When you see the whole onboard ALonso was into the braking zone before starting his run to the line for a fast lap and Magnussen decided to overtake him there. Right there Alonso's lap was 100% ruined, the only way he gets a good lap is passing Magnussen before the chicane. He couldn't and Magnussen overtaking at a point that leaves Alonso no chance to make a gap ruined his lap so Alonso ruined his. Ultimately they both could have been separately penalised for impeding each other imo, which is why the stewards left it as a wash, they both screwed each other up and seemingly on purpose, though for me Magnussen started it.

[Wynters]

This story is getting older and older. Racing for a podium is racing period. The fact that some drivers don't do that because they can't be bothered is the end of the sport. You say destruction derby, we say mistake. At least he tries. Andres, fatal accidents? When you make statements like that, it's just offensive. Sierra, you simply don't like VES because he is fortunate and privileged. Really nobody from a poor background will ever make it to F1. Get over it, I'm not here ranting about Alonso's behaviour every week either.

I believe Hamilton, at least, comes from a poor background. I'm sure there are others but I'm less familiar with the background of most of those currently on the grid.

Let's be very clear about something. Racing for a podium is excellent. Crashing into someone else for a podium is either incompetent or cheating. It is possible to differentiate between the two. You'll note that Bottas was racing for a podium but he decided not to nudge Max's rear going into turn 1. He could've easily spun him around with minimal damage to himself but, he didn't. Your current stance is that, by choosing not to spin Max off the circuit, clearly Bottas was 'not trying'.

As to the dangerous aspect of it. If Max didn't do this on purpose (I don't believe he did) then why wouldn't he have done the same thing on a street circuit, with concrete everywhere? Several years ago Schumacher left Barrichelo just enough room. If Max can't judge the width of the track and/or where his car is on the track then why wouldn't he try the same move except, unlike Schumacher, he'll make a mistake about how much space the guy he is racing actually has and now we've got a car in the wall, at top speed, as it goes past the pit boards with engineers leaning out.

People defending Max simply reinforces his 'I did nothing wrong, it's all a conspiracy' approach. This means he won't sit down and learn from his mistake and stop ramming people, he'll keep doing it. In fact, given his stubborn responses during and after the race, I'd argue he's even more likely to do it now. He's already proved that he doesn't care about screwing himself in a vain attempt to prove a point.

[Jolle]

Ricciardo is well liked and gets away with a hell of a lot. Earlier this year in was it bahrain, probably China, Bottas straight up jumped out of the way and left the inside completely undefended because he saw Ricciardo doing a divebomb, Bottas had no reason to change line, Ricciardo had exactly no right to try a dive bomb from there. Bottas decided he didn't want his race ended so moved out of the way but ultimately Ricciardo was saying defend and we're both out, don't and I take the position.

In Monza he did the same thing, moves from far back, little chance of success and would only work if the driver completely gave up the position and moved out of the way. Ricciardo constantly gets praised for his late braking but mostly he puts two bad options on the table and most drivers take the lesser evil. Ricciardo has absolutely pulled plenty of great moves, but his dive bombing has become a game of chicken with other drivers.

THinking back to say Hungary in 2014, maybe it was 2015, where he tried a ludicrous one on Rosberg, braked way to late, went completely off track and while I think Rosberg should have given him room to come back on, Ricciardo messed up the corner and had no right to position, he floored it, came back on and caused contact with another driver. This is the way he set himself up with other drivers and other drivers have been making life easy for Ricciardo while imo, Ricciardo gets away with bloody murder when it comes to reckless overtakes. Gasly just refused to give up and Ricciardo immediately causes two contacts one of which should certainly have been penalised.

Alonso, meh, I think what he did was silly but Magnussen was equally an idiot in that situation. When you see the whole onboard ALonso was into the braking zone before starting his run to the line for a fast lap and Magnussen decided to overtake him there. Right there Alonso's lap was 100% ruined, the only way he gets a good lap is passing Magnussen before the chicane. He couldn't and Magnussen overtaking at a point that leaves Alonso no chance to make a gap ruined his lap so Alonso ruined his. Ultimately they both could have been separately penalised for impeding each other imo, which is why the stewards left it as a wash, they both screwed each other up and seemingly on purpose, though for me Magnussen started it.

Four wheels off the track, starting your Q lap to close to the guy in front and then block him while you get back on to track. they should take his licence But rules don't apply to Alonso...

[NYGIANTS]

Vettel's race craft is terrible. He would very likely have received a stiff penalty if Lewis had spun from their crash. Perhaps the stewards thought his spin was costly enough, allowing him to get away with bad behaviour.

When going into a corner, the driver in front owns the racing line, so Seb had no reason to be going in long; except he was hunting for an advantageous crash, as the car on the outside (where Lewis was) usually does the spinning.

An attacking car has the right to the racing line if it is alongside the car it is chasing. The image below (courtesy f1metrics.wordpress.com) illustrates this, with the blue car required to yield to the pink attacker. Lewis was even farther ahead than this - up to half a cars length ahead.

https://f1metrics.files.wordpress.com/2 ... apex_a.png

Read more about racing rules here: https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08 ... of-racing/

agree!

but proper pass through turns 4 and 5 side by side, shumacher vs montoya 2003.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvx0xcrWwUk

[F1NAC]

Vettel's race craft is terrible. He would very likely have received a stiff penalty if Lewis had spun from their crash. Perhaps the stewards thought his spin was costly enough, allowing him to get away with bad behaviour.

When going into a corner, the driver in front owns the racing line, so Seb had no reason to be going in long; except he was hunting for an advantageous crash, as the car on the outside (where Lewis was) usually does the spinning.

An attacking car has the right to the racing line if it is alongside the car it is chasing. The image below (courtesy f1metrics.wordpress.com) illustrates this, with the blue car required to yield to the pink attacker. Lewis was even farther ahead than this - up to half a cars length ahead.

https://f1metrics.files.wordpress.com/2 ... apex_a.png

Read more about racing rules here: https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08 ... of-racing/

agree!

but proper pass through turns 4 and 5 side by side, shumacher vs montoya 2003.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvx0xcrWwUk

There were no kerbs at the apex so it was easier for schumy. (Lesser angle)

[Andres125sx]

It get me sick when people use unfair past decisions about illegal moves to justify another illegal move. This way anyone can do anything he wants, as there are plenty of unfair decisions at any aspect of the rules, at any track, and about any aspect of racing.

Is that what we fans want to see? Destruction Derby F1 until someone causes a fatal crash and then we all will say how clueless that was? Rules are there for a reason, stick to them or you´ll be penalized, even if previously someone wasn´t when he should have been

Absolutely. The desire for a podium or to satisfy one's ego is not worth the guilt of causing a horrible crash, knowing you could have done better. I'm really disappointed that the mature heads at the team keep reinforcing it to Max that he's some genius who can't be wrong and if he is well no biggie because the fact is that he's not. There are several kids out there who could do better a la Leclerc. Max is just fortunate and he should definitely reflect on his privilege and be more patient on track. We don't wanna see him or anyone else seriously hurt.

This story is getting older and older. Racing for a podium is racing period. The fact that some drivers don't do that because they can't be bothered is the end of the sport. You say destruction derby, we say mistake. At least he tries. Andres, fatal accidents? When you make statements like that, it's just offensive.

Maybe I didn´t word it properly, even when reading my post again I think I did, but just in case I´ll clarify I was not saying Max move was a potentially fatal accident, no way. I was saying that behaviour from fans wich try to justify some illegal move with past illegal moves wich were not penalized, is absurd, because if we go that route, then no rule need to be enforced as there have been dozens of incidents in F1 history were someone who should have been penalized wasn´t. If no rule need to be enforced because someone broke it previously, we´ll end up with destruction derby F1.

F1 is as safe as it is today thanks to rules (apart from other factors), so we should ask for their enforcement. Justifiing a driver who broke some rule with examples of past eras drivers who did the same is exactly the opposite.

Also, I´m not saying Max did it on purpose, but unconsciousness is equally dangerous. He´s a child who need to be taught about what are the limits. This time FIA finally did it, because there have been several incidents in his short career were none FIA or RBR did it so he (as anyone in his position) didn´t have any reason to be more careful. I´m sure that´s the reason he didn´t accept this penalty, he´s not used to anyone saying what he can or cannot do.

[NYGIANTS]

Vettel's race craft is terrible. He would very likely have received a stiff penalty if Lewis had spun from their crash. Perhaps the stewards thought his spin was costly enough, allowing him to get away with bad behaviour.

When going into a corner, the driver in front owns the racing line, so Seb had no reason to be going in long; except he was hunting for an advantageous crash, as the car on the outside (where Lewis was) usually does the spinning.

An attacking car has the right to the racing line if it is alongside the car it is chasing. The image below (courtesy f1metrics.wordpress.com) illustrates this, with the blue car required to yield to the pink attacker. Lewis was even farther ahead than this - up to half a cars length ahead.

https://f1metrics.files.wordpress.com/2 ... apex_a.png

Read more about racing rules here: https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08 ... of-racing/

agree!

but proper pass through turns 4 and 5 side by side, shumacher vs montoya 2003.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvx0xcrWwUk

There were no kerbs at the apex so it was easier for schumy. (Lesser angle)

there was a kerb at turn 4 and it looks to be about the same height.

point is, it is possible to go side by side through there. vettel can be clumsy at times which might cost him the championship.

[Andres125sx]

Ricciardo is well liked and gets away with a hell of a lot. Earlier this year in was it bahrain, probably China, Bottas straight up jumped out of the way and left the inside completely undefended because he saw Ricciardo doing a divebomb, Bottas had no reason to change line, Ricciardo had exactly no right to try a dive bomb from there. Bottas decided he didn't want his race ended so moved out of the way but ultimately Ricciardo was saying defend and we're both out, don't and I take the position.

In Monza he did the same thing, moves from far back, little chance of success and would only work if the driver completely gave up the position and moved out of the way. Ricciardo constantly gets praised for his late braking but mostly he puts two bad options on the table and most drivers take the lesser evil. Ricciardo has absolutely pulled plenty of great moves, but his dive bombing has become a game of chicken with other drivers.

THinking back to say Hungary in 2014, maybe it was 2015, where he tried a ludicrous one on Rosberg, braked way to late, went completely off track and while I think Rosberg should have given him room to come back on, Ricciardo messed up the corner and had no right to position, he floored it, came back on and caused contact with another driver. This is the way he set himself up with other drivers and other drivers have been making life easy for Ricciardo while imo, Ricciardo gets away with bloody murder when it comes to reckless overtakes. Gasly just refused to give up and Ricciardo immediately causes two contacts one of which should certainly have been penalised.

Alonso, meh, I think what he did was silly but Magnussen was equally an idiot in that situation. When you see the whole onboard ALonso was into the braking zone before starting his run to the line for a fast lap and Magnussen decided to overtake him there. Right there Alonso's lap was 100% ruined, the only way he gets a good lap is passing Magnussen before the chicane. He couldn't and Magnussen overtaking at a point that leaves Alonso no chance to make a gap ruined his lap so Alonso ruined his. Ultimately they both could have been separately penalised for impeding each other imo, which is why the stewards left it as a wash, they both screwed each other up and seemingly on purpose, though for me Magnussen started it.

Four wheels off the track, starting your Q lap to close to the guy in front and then block him while you get back on to track. they should take his licence But rules don't apply to Alonso...

Alonso started the Q lap too close to Kevin because Kevin decided to break a well known gentlemen agreement. Obviously you don´t know it, but there´s a gentlemen agreement about drivers NOT overtaking the car in front when he´s slowing down just before his fast lap to let some car in front go and get some clean air

Magnusen, who obviously is not a gentleman, broke that agreement, overtook Alonso at parabolica just before his fast lap ruining his last attempt, and got some instant karma

Kevin must be kinda stupid if he was thinking he could fu** up Alonso this way

[NYGIANTS]

I dunno, both Kimi (no damage) and Seb were destroying the softs. I think it would've been real close either way. Ferrari might have come out on top, but definitely not a slam dunk.

Their strategy may indeed cost them both titles in the end, but currently Vettel is making that a moot point with his own blunders.

I think them destroying their tires is a consequence of the position they were in. It would not surprise me if Ferrari went marginal on brake cooling and wing expecting them running in clean air. Raikkonen destroyed his tires (front and back) when running behind Bottas, but when he Bottas pitted they seemed to stabilise again. I think a combination of a bit too much sliding and too high brake temps when following other cars could explain it.

following bottas or trying to keep up with hamilton to prevent the overcut overworked the tires?

[NYGIANTS]

The other thing I simply don't understand concerning the way Ferrari handled Kimi's race: Sebastian was already running the Soft tyre in the first stint. They would have seen the way it degraded when pushed hard. Seb had to pit much earlier than anticipated as a result of bad blistering, and yet they went and pitted Raikkonen early anyway. Did they think he was going to manage the tyres better?

It just seems like Ferrari went for the desperate move and stopped thinking clearly in the heat of the moment. Pressure and stress leading to poor decision-making.

They were afraid of Hamilton's undercut. There is no way they could defend against that unless they pit earlier or at the same time. When mercedes crew went out they simply had to pit Kimi.

This. The merc boys were in the pitlane. Ferrari had to pit to protect the lead. Once they pitted Lewis was told Hammertime so Kimi had to push flat out while Lewis was doing the same. Kimi may have backed off a little for 2 or 3 laps before Lewis came in. In hindsight it wouldn't have made a difference if Kimi backed off a little earlier, The damage to the tyres was done in the opening 2/3 laps of Kimis stint where it was essential that Kimi pushed hard to maintain the lead.
There was nothing wrong with Ferrari's strategy.

As for Bottas, yes he slowed Kimi but like Brundle said, Bottas was setting his fastest laps when Kimi was just behind him. So he wasnt holding Kimi back purposely. Bottas' strategy was the same as Lewis'. Stay out longer so you can attack towards the end and have much fresher tyres to do so.
Both Merc strategies worked and a 1-3 was a great result.
Ferrari didn't fall into the Merc trap, they were thrown into it by Mercedes themself

couldn't agree more!

[Jolle]

Ricciardo is well liked and gets away with a hell of a lot. Earlier this year in was it bahrain, probably China, Bottas straight up jumped out of the way and left the inside completely undefended because he saw Ricciardo doing a divebomb, Bottas had no reason to change line, Ricciardo had exactly no right to try a dive bomb from there. Bottas decided he didn't want his race ended so moved out of the way but ultimately Ricciardo was saying defend and we're both out, don't and I take the position.

In Monza he did the same thing, moves from far back, little chance of success and would only work if the driver completely gave up the position and moved out of the way. Ricciardo constantly gets praised for his late braking but mostly he puts two bad options on the table and most drivers take the lesser evil. Ricciardo has absolutely pulled plenty of great moves, but his dive bombing has become a game of chicken with other drivers.

THinking back to say Hungary in 2014, maybe it was 2015, where he tried a ludicrous one on Rosberg, braked way to late, went completely off track and while I think Rosberg should have given him room to come back on, Ricciardo messed up the corner and had no right to position, he floored it, came back on and caused contact with another driver. This is the way he set himself up with other drivers and other drivers have been making life easy for Ricciardo while imo, Ricciardo gets away with bloody murder when it comes to reckless overtakes. Gasly just refused to give up and Ricciardo immediately causes two contacts one of which should certainly have been penalised.

Alonso, meh, I think what he did was silly but Magnussen was equally an idiot in that situation. When you see the whole onboard ALonso was into the braking zone before starting his run to the line for a fast lap and Magnussen decided to overtake him there. Right there Alonso's lap was 100% ruined, the only way he gets a good lap is passing Magnussen before the chicane. He couldn't and Magnussen overtaking at a point that leaves Alonso no chance to make a gap ruined his lap so Alonso ruined his. Ultimately they both could have been separately penalised for impeding each other imo, which is why the stewards left it as a wash, they both screwed each other up and seemingly on purpose, though for me Magnussen started it.

Four wheels off the track, starting your Q lap to close to the guy in front and then block him while you get back on to track. they should take his licence But rules don't apply to Alonso...

Alonso started the Q lap too close to Kevin because Kevin decided to break a well known gentlemen agreement. Obviously you don´t know it, but there´s a gentlemen agreement about drivers NOT overtaking the car in front when he´s slowing down just before his fast lap to let some car in front go and get some clean air

Magnusen, who obviously is not a gentleman, broke that agreement, overtook Alonso at parabolica just before his fast lap ruining his last attempt, and got some instant karma

Kevin must be kinda stupid if he was thinking he could fu** up Alonso this way

so..... breaking the rules in some kind of payback karma kinda way is allowed? or just if your name is Alonso? or not Max?