2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[SiLo]

You don't give team orders on the first lap. What if Kimi was the faster driver during the race and Vettel was holding him and putting the win at risk? You can't tell that after 4 corners so you wait a while to make sure the person behind is faster and then implement.

[Fulcrum]

Jeez, we have an understanding problem... Constructor points LOST at Monza were on Vettel.

Kimi hasn't won a single race, and that was his first pole with what many consider the best car on the grid, and has been beaten in just about every race where Sebastian didn't make a bad miastake.
That's not great performance no matter how you want to slice it.

He's too slow to be a lead driver, he performs like a lapdog he should act like a good compliant lapdog.

In the absence of overt team orders and well choreographed directives at the start, what exactly should Kimi have done differently? Are you suggesting that he should make the decision within himself to move over before he is asked to?

What racing driver with a pulse is going to do that? Even Massa wouldn't have done that for Alonso.

You state, repeatedly, that Raikkonen crowded out Vettel. Where did he do this?

Into the first chicane Raikkonen held the inside line, never moved off it, and left 30-50cm of space between himself and Vettel at all times. Into the Roggia chicane, Raikkonen was in front by some car lengths, assumed his line for the corner several hundred metres from the apex, and again never moved off that line. Vettel screwed himself by being in two minds - dive bomb his teammate or pay attention to Hamilton.

You are also vastly overstating Vettel's superiority.

Correcting for retirements, Raikkonen would have 195 points, 31 adrift of Vettel. Vettel is behind Hamilton by 30 points. Does that make Vettel Hamilton's lapdog then?

Given the limitations within which he operates - this is practically the first weekend where he has received overtly preferential treatment - he's doing as much as the team could hope for: he's beating Bottas, and scoring podiums consistently; more consistently than Vettel.

What i wanted is for him to leave the door wide open for Vettel, a Vettel win would've been better for Ferrari than a Kimi win, and that's exactly what i expected.

In terms of fair driving, ignoring championship concerns and the fact they work for the same team Kimi was fair, but both in the run to T1 and T3 he defended and made Vettel's life more difficult, which i thought was selfish and i'm gonna call him out on it.

The performance difference between Kimi and Vettel can't be overstated, the only races where Kimi finished infront where races where Vettel ran into some kind of problem, either self inflicted or by other means, Kimi is not championship winning material anymore that's the reality.

And yes Hamilton is taking Vettel to school, and proving to be the better more consistent performer, just like Vettel is compared to Kimi.

And a Ferrari 1-2 with Vettel in 1st would have been far better, and far more readily achievable, if Vettel had simply held station during the initial laps. Raikkonen doing what you suggest would have immediately demoted him to 3rd - I'm sure you couldn't care less, but Ferrari might think differently.

If Vettel was that much faster than Raikkonen, as you claim, then he would have had no trouble getting past at his leisure. Likewise, having 2 cars in front would have placed Hamilton under pressure, not the other way around, and Vettel could have been in-line to gain 10 points over Hamilton rather than 7. Its a complete brain fade on Vettel's part. Vettel was racing Hamilton, not Raikkonen. He should have focused on Hamilton first, Raikkonen not at all.

No-one is suggesting Raikkonen is going to win a championship - but your suggestion he self-immolate whenever convenient for Vettel is just short sighted and stupid. There are more appropriate ways of managing situations when your number 2 proves to be inconveniently quick.

Ferrari have handled this situation very poorly and they'll only have themselves to blame if, and when, they miss out on both Championships.

[subcritical71]

Mark Hughes' race report clarifies what happened I think. So he's saying that Kimi's pole lap triggered a "no team orders" clause in his contract. Vettel, was described by a lot of people as a "planner" and that, when things don't go as his plans, tends to lose focus and make mistakes. Given these pieces of information, I offer you this theory: Vettel knew that he wasn't going to get any help from the team or Kimi, so he probably set his mind to do it at the start or at least in the first lap, thinking that Kimi will get one of his trademark starts. But he didn't and this is where it began to fall apart for Seb. Instead of re-assessing the situation, he got desperate and tried to force his way past with two very clumsy moves. As per his plan of doing it all in the first lap

Makes sense given Vettels comment earlier in the weekend, “If he’s starting from pole, I guess he’s allowed to win”

[Juzh]

What if Kimi was the faster driver during the race and Vettel was holding him and putting the win at risk?

There were maybe 3 or 4 races in 3 and half years where RAI was actually faster in race conditions.

[Phil]

That applies for all the others. Hamilton also could have had more damage to the car so his fight was not so smart, too. The outcome does not reflect the smartness of the move. Tooth and nail is tooth and nail. Whoever does it.

Hamilton’s position was far better than that. Assuming they both crash, the gap remains with one race less. Compare this with the prospect of not driving aggressively and finishing behind Vettel, either losing 3 points or 10 points.

Not driving aggressively, the gap could be a mere 7 points heading into Singapore. Driving aggressively, both crashing or sustaining damage could be a gap still at 17 points. Or it being the successfull overtake it was, ended up turning out the 30 points gap lead it now is.

The odds were way in favor of being aggressive.

The same holds true at Singapore too, if both Vettel and Hamilton go bumper to bumper again. Who loses more if they both crash and the gap remains with another one less race remaining?

[Zynerji]

Are you joking?

Just more hate... 5 WDC's don't seem to overcome his opinion, so what can you do but ignore?

He never had any pressure when he won and when an ACE (Ricardo) was placed next to him at RBR ... he faltered.

So, Webber being 16 points ahead with 3 races to go in 2010 doesn't count?

Off to the ignore list you go!

[LM10]

Just more hate... 5 WDC's don't seem to overcome his opinion, so what can you do but ignore?

He never had any pressure when he won and when an ACE (Ricardo) was placed next to him at RBR ... he faltered.

So, Webber being 16 points ahead with 3 races to go in 2010 doesn't count?

Off to the ignore list you go!

The best you could have done.

[diffuser]

Just more hate... 5 WDC's don't seem to overcome his opinion, so what can you do but ignore?

He never had any pressure when he won and when an ACE (Ricardo) was placed next to him at RBR ... he faltered.

So, Webber being 16 points ahead with 3 races to go in 2010 doesn't count?

Off to the ignore list you go!

Thank you, I appreciate that.

We`ll see next year if LeClerc is there.... In my opinion if he was really top notch he would have won last year and this year. Just makes too many mistakes.

[M840TR]

He never had any pressure when he won and when an ACE (Ricardo) was placed next to him at RBR ... he faltered.

So, Webber being 16 points ahead with 3 races to go in 2010 doesn't count?

Off to the ignore list you go!

Thank you, I appreciate that.

We`ll see next year if LeClerc is there.... In my opinion if he was really top notch he would have won last year and this year. Just makes too many mistakes.

We only need to look at this season. Lost 25 points in Germany, 13 in Baku, 13 in Italy and 5 in France. That's 56 points without even counting the 24 Hamilton would've lost. Heck he pulled a 30 points lead with a mechanical DNF AND grid penalties. One can only imagine this car in the hands of Alonso.

[foxmulder_ms]

Mark Hughes' race report clarifies what happened I think. So he's saying that Kimi's pole lap triggered a "no team orders" clause in his contract. Vettel, was described by a lot of people as a "planner" and that, when things don't go as his plans, tends to lose focus and make mistakes. Given these pieces of information, I offer you this theory: Vettel knew that he wasn't going to get any help from the team or Kimi, so he probably set his mind to do it at the start or at least in the first lap, thinking that Kimi will get one of his trademark starts. But he didn't and this is where it began to fall apart for Seb. Instead of re-assessing the situation, he got desperate and tried to force his way past with two very clumsy moves. As per his plan of doing it all in the first lap

Makes sense given Vettels comment earlier in the weekend, “If he’s starting from pole, I guess he’s allowed to win”

haha.. makes sense. I buy it. It explains the "urgency" Vettel had at the start. Still it was a huge mistake on Vettel's part.

What makes me really angry/sad is Vettels sour grapeness after the pole lap by Kimi. Everyone was extremely happy but he ruined the atmosphere and team spirit. In that moment, whole weekend is ruined.

Now probably Kimi will be the scapegoat and will not be given a seat next year. Ironically the reason will be him being "too successful" this season. I genuinely think this is the best season since his second go around with Ferrari. He had more DNFs and lacked teams support and still gathered a lot of points. During both races and qualifying he is only 1/10th of a second or so slower than Vettel, sometimes faster. If this is not perfect, I don't know what is, for Ferrari. Frankly last two seasons it is Vettel who is under performing miserably.

[bonjon1979]

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/20539/ve ... cars-.html

If it's true that Kimi has a clause in his contract that states he can fight for the win if he puts it on pole, i guess they have to compromise his qualifying to make sure he doesn't get ahead of Vettel. Interesting and tough decisions to be made.

What do Ferrari do next race?

Personally, I think I'd look to split strategies. Put Kimi on the slower more durable tyre in Q2 so you know that even if he does get pole Sebastian will get him off the line. Also, if he's on the slower tyre then he'll be able to hold up Hamilton behind for longer as it's pretty tough to overtake at singapore.

[alexx_88]

Just more hate... 5 WDC's don't seem to overcome his opinion, so what can you do but ignore?

He never had any pressure when he won and when an ACE (Ricardo) was placed next to him at RBR ... he faltered.

So, Webber being 16 points ahead with 3 races to go in 2010 doesn't count?

Off to the ignore list you go!

The theory is not completely off-merit, especially as arguably it's been proven right a few times. In 2010 he was the underdog, had all the time in the world and a brilliant car underneath him. All of these factors lower the pressure experienced, sort of a "nothing to lose" mentality. On the other hand, he's right now feeling the pressure to emulate his idol, Schumacher, I'm sure the army of Ferrari fans and employees convey the feeling that he's their hope to get another title after 10 years. If he wins this one, it will become easier.

[Sevach]

In the absence of overt team orders and well choreographed directives at the start, what exactly should Kimi have done differently? Are you suggesting that he should make the decision within himself to move over before he is asked to?

What racing driver with a pulse is going to do that? Even Massa wouldn't have done that for Alonso.

You state, repeatedly, that Raikkonen crowded out Vettel. Where did he do this?

Into the first chicane Raikkonen held the inside line, never moved off it, and left 30-50cm of space between himself and Vettel at all times. Into the Roggia chicane, Raikkonen was in front by some car lengths, assumed his line for the corner several hundred metres from the apex, and again never moved off that line. Vettel screwed himself by being in two minds - dive bomb his teammate or pay attention to Hamilton.

You are also vastly overstating Vettel's superiority.

Correcting for retirements, Raikkonen would have 195 points, 31 adrift of Vettel. Vettel is behind Hamilton by 30 points. Does that make Vettel Hamilton's lapdog then?

Given the limitations within which he operates - this is practically the first weekend where he has received overtly preferential treatment - he's doing as much as the team could hope for: he's beating Bottas, and scoring podiums consistently; more consistently than Vettel.

What i wanted is for him to leave the door wide open for Vettel, a Vettel win would've been better for Ferrari than a Kimi win, and that's exactly what i expected.

In terms of fair driving, ignoring championship concerns and the fact they work for the same team Kimi was fair, but both in the run to T1 and T3 he defended and made Vettel's life more difficult, which i thought was selfish and i'm gonna call him out on it.

The performance difference between Kimi and Vettel can't be overstated, the only races where Kimi finished infront where races where Vettel ran into some kind of problem, either self inflicted or by other means, Kimi is not championship winning material anymore that's the reality.

And yes Hamilton is taking Vettel to school, and proving to be the better more consistent performer, just like Vettel is compared to Kimi.

And a Ferrari 1-2 with Vettel in 1st would have been far better, and far more readily achievable, if Vettel had simply held station during the initial laps. Raikkonen doing what you suggest would have immediately demoted him to 3rd - I'm sure you couldn't care less, but Ferrari might think differently.

If Vettel was that much faster than Raikkonen, as you claim, then he would have had no trouble getting past at his leisure. Likewise, having 2 cars in front would have placed Hamilton under pressure, not the other way around, and Vettel could have been in-line to gain 10 points over Hamilton rather than 7. Its a complete brain fade on Vettel's part. Vettel was racing Hamilton, not Raikkonen. He should have focused on Hamilton first, Raikkonen not at all.

No-one is suggesting Raikkonen is going to win a championship - but your suggestion he self-immolate whenever convenient for Vettel is just short sighted and stupid. There are more appropriate ways of managing situations when your number 2 proves to be inconveniently quick.

Ferrari have handled this situation very poorly and they'll only have themselves to blame if, and when, they miss out on both Championships.

Question, if they run side by side into T1 and Raikkonen let's Vettel outbrake him, what's Hamilton going to do? How is he going to sneak past without losing a FW and risking a penalty?

Kimi acted on his own self interest by defending Vettel, yeah Vettel (who i repeatedly called stupid) could've done what you said, but that doesn't change the fact that Raikkonen is out for himself rather than the team.

You said Vettel should've worried about Hamilton right, i say both of them should've worried about Hamilton and have an agreement of either non attack(for now) or switch as soon as possible.
But Kimi clearly wanted to keep Vettel behind for reasons that are only important to him (and you apparently).

[JRodrigues]

Question, if they run side by side into T1 and Raikkonen let's Vettel outbrake him, what's Hamilton going to do? How is he going to sneak past without losing a FW and risking a penalty?

Hamilton would wait for Variante della Roggia and pass him there. Like he did with Vettel.

[Fulcrum]

What i wanted is for him to leave the door wide open for Vettel, a Vettel win would've been better for Ferrari than a Kimi win, and that's exactly what i expected.

In terms of fair driving, ignoring championship concerns and the fact they work for the same team Kimi was fair, but both in the run to T1 and T3 he defended and made Vettel's life more difficult, which i thought was selfish and i'm gonna call him out on it.

The performance difference between Kimi and Vettel can't be overstated, the only races where Kimi finished infront where races where Vettel ran into some kind of problem, either self inflicted or by other means, Kimi is not championship winning material anymore that's the reality.

And yes Hamilton is taking Vettel to school, and proving to be the better more consistent performer, just like Vettel is compared to Kimi.

And a Ferrari 1-2 with Vettel in 1st would have been far better, and far more readily achievable, if Vettel had simply held station during the initial laps. Raikkonen doing what you suggest would have immediately demoted him to 3rd - I'm sure you couldn't care less, but Ferrari might think differently.

If Vettel was that much faster than Raikkonen, as you claim, then he would have had no trouble getting past at his leisure. Likewise, having 2 cars in front would have placed Hamilton under pressure, not the other way around, and Vettel could have been in-line to gain 10 points over Hamilton rather than 7. Its a complete brain fade on Vettel's part. Vettel was racing Hamilton, not Raikkonen. He should have focused on Hamilton first, Raikkonen not at all.

No-one is suggesting Raikkonen is going to win a championship - but your suggestion he self-immolate whenever convenient for Vettel is just short sighted and stupid. There are more appropriate ways of managing situations when your number 2 proves to be inconveniently quick.

Ferrari have handled this situation very poorly and they'll only have themselves to blame if, and when, they miss out on both Championships.

Question, if they run side by side into T1 and Raikkonen let's Vettel outbrake him, what's Hamilton going to do? How is he going to sneak past without losing a FW and risking a penalty?

Kimi acted on his own self interest by defending Vettel, yeah Vettel (who i repeatedly called stupid) could've done what you said, but that doesn't change the fact that Raikkonen is out for himself rather than the team.

You said Vettel should've worried about Hamilton right, i say both of them should've worried about Hamilton and have an agreement of either non attack(for now) or switch as soon as possible.
But Kimi clearly wanted to keep Vettel behind for reasons that are only important to him (and you apparently).

If Raikkonen did that into turn 1, he'd have been out of position and passed by Hamilton into Turn 3.

You are reading way too much into Raikkonen's frame of mind, based on worse than 2nd hand information. That's not very technical or informative, and because your arguments are based on absolute fresh air - i.e. nothing - they are easy to rebut.

My last remark in this regard: what is simpler, safer, and less prone to error? Orchestrating a pass off the start line between parties that are, apparently, and according to you, potentially non-cooperative? Or doing so during a (pick one): pit stop; late phase of a stint; first phase of a stint; 5 laps after the start; after a safety car; after team principles have had a chat with non-compliant drivers?

The answer is, to me anyway, do it when you have maximum control of the outcomes. Starts are chaotic, you have little to no control over a great many things as too much is happening all at once, and you can't foresee every potential outcome of the choices you make - as Vettel learned to his detriment this weekend.