Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[trinidefender]

“there has been lots of discussion of this (Malhe TJI combustion system) here in various threads”. Yes there was, and also elsewhere where the speculation started about what the formula one engine combustion chamber is like and or the process is like.
“the intents and benefits of ‘TJI’ could be achieved by a single direct injector spraying towards the exterior of the ‘prechamber’ (containg the spark-plug)” so the formula one engine uses a ‘pre-combustion chamber’. That is the original rubber band like reasoning to justify his claims, by the original discoverer of what goes on inside the FI engine combustion and or what the combustion chamber is like. This after the original discoverer inside a week's time had changed his mind from manufacturers (are using HCCI) to manufacturers (are using Malhe TJI).

Nothing you said here means that it is illegal to run a pre-chamber. Just for your information there were talks about using a pre-chamber on this forum before anything in the press. It has even been said that the press may have got the idea from reading this forum.

HCCI was never seriously considered here either, some were talking about it but from my memory it was quickly discarded as unusable due to being too unstable (even if used with spark assistance so it would be legal).

Lastly, it was confirmed by Honda that pre-chamber technology is being used by most if not all of the engine manufactures including Honda themselves.

[saviour stivala]

The introduction of the new hybrid power unit in 2014 was always going to intensify the speculation race between friends, this because there were new and unknown system being introduced.
The first race of the first hybrid season hadn’t even started when the first speculation shot was fired “these engines doesn’t use spark-plugs”, anybody remember that?.
On the same subject pure speculation at its best resurfaced “so spark-plugs firing is used only when needed”, this article was on the 16th April 2016 when the use of HCCI was first pushed out, the 24th April 2016 article was the second one when assurance was given by Andy Cowell when asked if they were using HCCI and he said they were not using HCCI, so TJI was pushed-out instead in the second article.

[63l8qrrfy6]

“there has been lots of discussion of this (Malhe TJI combustion system) here in various threads”. Yes there was, and also elsewhere where the speculation started about what the formula one engine combustion chamber is like and or the process is like.
“the intents and benefits of ‘TJI’ could be achieved by a single direct injector spraying towards the exterior of the ‘prechamber’ (containg the spark-plug)” so the formula one engine uses a ‘pre-combustion chamber’. That is the original rubber band like reasoning to justify his claims, by the original discoverer of what goes on inside the FI engine combustion and or what the combustion chamber is like. This after the original discoverer inside a week's time had changed his mind from manufacturers (are using HCCI) to manufacturers (are using Malhe TJI).

Nothing you said here means that it is illegal to run a pre-chamber. Just for your information there were talks about using a pre-chamber on this forum before anything in the press. It has even been said that the press may have got the idea from reading this forum.

HCCI was never seriously considered here either, some were talking about it but from my memory it was quickly discarded as unusable due to being too unstable (even if used with spark assistance so it would be legal).

Lastly, it was confirmed by Honda that pre-chamber technology is being used by most if not all of the engine manufactures including Honda themselves.

What this guys said.

The Honda combustion chamber layout revealed in the article translated on this forum coincides with the injector placement seen on both Honda and Merc engines. It also appears compliant with all FIA regs, unless our friend SS is of a different opinion ?

[saviour stivala]

I was asked a question. “so is this a hint that combustion process is conventional?. I personally believe
That’s the case and I will give my personal opinion to that. But first, there is actually not much wrong in speculating up to a point when the ‘verve’ (rush to be first) the speculator will tend to skip and or push aside rules and regulations that governs the subject at hand. I believe that the fastest way forward in extracting power out of combustion without going to the huge expenses and time consuming process of redesigning and manufacture major engine parts to experiment with, it is best to refine the conventional combustion process to the limits permitted by the fuel supplied, the present manufacturers are able to operate their power unites at that very limit only thanks to their development of controlling tools (in cylinder knock sensors control).

[63l8qrrfy6]

I was asked a question. “so is this a hint that combustion process is conventional?. I personally believe
That’s the case and I will give my personal opinion to that. But first, there is actually not much wrong in speculating up to a point when the ‘verve’ (rush to be first) the speculator will tend to skip and or push aside rules and regulations that governs the subject at hand. I believe that the fastest way forward in extracting power out of combustion without going to the huge expenses and time consuming process of redesigning and manufacture major engine parts to experiment with, it is best to refine the conventional combustion process to the limits permitted by the fuel supplied, the present manufacturers are able to operate their power unites at that very limit only thanks to their development of controlling tools (in cylinder knock sensors control).

1. Name one conventional combustion system that operates at similar lambda, engine speed and compression ratio as modern F1 engines.

2. What exactly do you think is illegal about the combustion system we believe is in use on Honda at least ?

[saviour stivala]

“there has been lots of discussion of this (Malhe TJI combustion system) here in various threads”. Yes there was, and also elsewhere where the speculation started about what the formula one engine combustion chamber is like and or the process is like.
“the intents and benefits of ‘TJI’ could be achieved by a single direct injector spraying towards the exterior of the ‘prechamber’ (containg the spark-plug)” so the formula one engine uses a ‘pre-combustion chamber’. That is the original rubber band like reasoning to justify his claims, by the original discoverer of what goes on inside the FI engine combustion and or what the combustion chamber is like. This after the original discoverer inside a week's time had changed his mind from manufacturers (are using HCCI) to manufacturers (are using Malhe TJI).

Nothing you said here means that it is illegal to run a pre-chamber. Just for your information there were talks about using a pre-chamber on this forum before anything in the press. It has even been said that the press may have got the idea from reading this forum.

HCCI was never seriously considered here either, some were talking about it but from my memory it was quickly discarded as unusable due to being too unstable (even if used with spark assistance so it would be legal).

Lastly, it was confirmed by Honda that pre-chamber technology is being used by most if not all of the engine manufactures including Honda themselves.

What this guys said.

The Honda combustion chamber layout revealed in the article translated on this forum coincides with the injector placement seen on both Honda and Merc engines. It also appears compliant with all FIA regs, unless our friend SS is of a different opinion ?

HCCI with spark assistance would still not have been legal (read article I gave date for and read my posts) because one prime pre-requisite of HCCI is variable valve timing.

[saviour stivala]

Modern formula one engines manufacturers are only able to operate their engines on the very edge of the fuel formula they are supplied with because of their developed controlling tools (controlling combustion very limits), these tools are called “in-cylinder knock control sensors”.
What you, actually “WE” think/believe Honda are using (combustion configuration) does not effect my opinion as regards the use of TJI combustion system.

[roon]

Regarding the wastegate sound. Would venting the BOV into the exhaust just ahead of the wastegate valve (for legality) not accomplish:

-increase mean gas velocity through the WG pipe
-increase gas density within the WG pipe via cooling
-further reduce pre-turbine manifold pressure

Otherwise, perhaps the Ferrari wastegate simply filters out the exhaust pulse wavefronts more effectively than other teams' designs. Such that very little 'exhaust' noise (pulsation) makes it through the wastegate valve/entry. Thus the whooshing sound of a more uniform gas flow, as opposed to a clearer, less muffled exhaust note.

Regarding storing compressed air: might not be effective/efficient, as others have noted. To me, most logical place to do this would be the crankcase. Relatively large volume, capable of holding pressure far beyond boost pressure (~4 bar); thinking more like several-hundred psi and recharged somehow via piston leakage/blowby. But crankcase must be vented exterior to ICE? No entrainment into intake/cylinders/exhaust?

[ringo]

Are teams doing this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18AP4R_btKI

[sosic2121]

Are teams doing this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18AP4R_btKI

I have asked about this couple times before. I never believed they let turbo to stop and then spin it up again.

Is it allowed to have throttlebody open while breaking?

[saviour stivala]

some manages it by using both feet at the same time, its called harvesting by burning fuel. while some defines it as extra harvesting.

[Jejking]

Are teams doing this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18AP4R_btKI

I have asked about this couple times before. I never believed they let turbo to stop and then spin it up again.

Is it allowed to have throttlebody open while breaking?

My first response was: I don't think that is allowed anymore after the blown diffuser saga. Having the throttle open under braking (not breaking ) would lead to engine overrun. But this trick avoids the usage of fuel, so I can't imagine it's illegal when the clear and only goal is to keep the engine boost up.

[AJI]

... Having the throttle open under braking... would lead to engine overrun...

Not if you use the K as a brake...

[saviour stivala]

Regarding the wastegate sound. Would venting the BOV into the exhaust just ahead of the wastegate valve (for legality) not accomplish:

-increase mean gas velocity through the WG pipe
-increase gas density within the WG pipe via cooling
-further reduce pre-turbine manifold pressure

Otherwise, perhaps the Ferrari wastegate simply filters out the exhaust pulse wavefronts more effectively than other teams' designs. Such that very little 'exhaust' noise (pulsation) makes it through the wastegate valve/entry. Thus the whooshing sound of a more uniform gas flow, as opposed to a clearer, less muffled exhaust note.

Regarding storing compressed air: might not be effective/efficient, as others have noted. To me, most logical place to do this would be the crankcase. Relatively large volume, capable of holding pressure far beyond boost pressure (~4 bar); thinking more like several-hundred psi and recharged somehow via piston leakage/blowby. But crankcase must be vented exterior to ICE? No entrainment into intake/cylinders/exhaust?

How can they store compressed air in the crankase when it is run in a partial vacuum? [...]

[Dr. Acula]

Are teams doing this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18AP4R_btKI

I have asked about this couple times before. I never believed they let turbo to stop and then spin it up again.

Is it allowed to have throttlebody open while breaking?

There is no rule which would prevent it as far as i know it. The position of the throttle plate hasn't necessarily something to do with how much torque is generated in modern engines, so it should be within the rules.
But i don't see the necessaty of such a system in F1. The MGU-H can achieve the same. Ok, you can potentially save a little bit of energy, because the MGU-H would need less energy to keep the turbo spinning.