Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Sieper]

So when it was declared legal by the FIA, what they actually meant was it was undetectable with the current sensor configuration. Add a 2nd sensor and this extra power is no longer available.

So they were never using the method people had discussed on here where the rules permitted unlimited energy via a certain route.

Ferrari were simply cheating and directing more power than allowed in the rules, but in a way that was not via the standard sensor.

Which is not clever engineering like a flexy-wing etc. Its just dirty cheating.

You cannot say that. The FIA stated they did not find anything illegal (as their measuring method was not good enough to detect that) but when the teams proposed a different measuring method the FIA did decide to go along with it (which is a good thing, good flexibility).

If we look at the relative position Ferrari is in now it might seem that yes, it could have been taking place, but we will never know as at that point nothing illegal was detected.

[subcritical71]

So when it was declared legal by the FIA, what they actually meant was it was undetectable with the current sensor configuration. Add a 2nd sensor and this extra power is no longer available.

So they were never using the method people had discussed on here where the rules permitted unlimited energy via a certain route.

Ferrari were simply cheating and directing more power than allowed in the rules, but in a way that was not via the standard sensor.

Which is not clever engineering like a flexy-wing etc. Its just dirty cheating.

I wouldn't say cheating. Their rules interpretation didn't match the FIA's in the end, if what is reported is really the case. But the FIA even said they were legal a few times after placing additional sensors. Again, if true, this may be why the power has quietly disappeared... so that the FIA can attempt to save face.

So they were never using the method people had discussed on here where the rules permitted unlimited energy via a certain route.

If your talking about ES<>H<>K energy route I don't think is related to the article. Honda were very open and public that this was indeed how they operated. By probably reading too much into it, it seems this issue has to do with how much power is consumed by the MGU-K (ie. motoring)

[turbof1]

Again, there cannot be any allegations about cheating until somebody is effectively deemed to have done that through a ruling from the stewards, the FIA or the court of appeal. I will leave the posts above as an example where I absolutely do not want to the discussion to devolve into, but anything after this cannot be accusations.

There can be discussion about the possibility, and I heavily stress on the word POSSIBILITY, if in the previous situation more energy/power was used than supposed to.

Let's not forget there was a lot of investigation by the FIA previously. That was very extensive and Ferrari was deemed clear. Performance loss compared to Mercedes can have a number of reasons.

Also be critical about the article from AMuS. They themselves label their own article as speculation in the very last sentence. AMuS went even out of their way to make sure they nowhere label Ferrari of cheating. They are implying Ferrari being creative with interpretation as a possibility, but we also have to frame the article as that: not even an opinion, but a possibility.

For the record, should Ferrari have been able to legally construct a way of measurement that indicates a lower energy/power usage than the intended standard, than that can be perfectly legal as long as it fits the regulations. It's up to the FIA to fix potential loopholes in the measurement devices. That's not the same as outright producing more energy/power and having the surplus of energy/power above the legal treshold bypass the measurement. That would be cheating.

[63l8qrrfy6]

Are we sure we are not mixing up the timeline a bit ?

The FIA additional monitoring/hardware happened before the summer break. They concluded nothing untoward was happening and Ferrari continued to make good power.

Did the FIA change their mind again about being "completely satisfied" with Ferrari's ERS and decided to re-introduce more sensors recently (post summer break) ?

If that's the case, the only conclusion to draw is to do with FIA's competence. As DC rightly said - if their engineers were any good they would be working for the teams!

[maddim]

Are we sure we are not mixing up the timeline a bit ?

The FIA additional monitoring/hardware happened before the summer break. They concluded nothing untoward was happening and Ferrari continued to make good power.

Did the FIA change their mind again about being "completely satisfied" with Ferrari's ERS and decided to re-introduce more sensors recently (post summer break) ?

If that's the case, the only conclusion to draw is to do with FIA's competence. As DC rightly said - if their engineers were any good they would be working for the teams!

I remember that this was supposed to happen from the Canada GP. The second sensor I mean.

[bonjon1979]

I can't help feeling that the drop in power might be because they really pushed the engine in it's first few races on power hungry tracks to keep in the fight. Now they have to conserve them a little bit more to get to the end without any penalties. I remember an interview with Hamilton where he was talking about how many max power laps they have in each engine and that they need to eek those out across all the GP. Maybe Ferrari pushed it hard early on to stay in the championship and now that's costing them. That feels more likely than the sensors that I think were added earlier in the summer before Spa stopping them 'cheating'. Just my two cents worth...

[turbof1]

So for the record, we don't want any discussion about accusations (again, if any authorative body makes a decision about that, than it will be a different matter). In both directions to be very clear, so also no more posts denouncing the accusations. We need the discussion to move forward.

Trying to figure out what the second sensor is potentially hampering regarding performance, is completely fine. Just make sure to express it as an opinion and to use well constructed arguments founded on the regulations, pictures, etc.

[MtthsMlw]

I can't help feeling that the drop in power might be because they really pushed the engine in it's first few races on power hungry tracks to keep in the fight. Now they have to conserve them a little bit more to get to the end without any penalties. I remember an interview with Hamilton where he was talking about how many max power laps they have in each engine and that they need to eek those out across all the GP. Maybe Ferrari pushed it hard early on to stay in the championship and now that's costing them. That feels more likely than the sensors that I think were added earlier in the summer before Spa stopping them 'cheating'. Just my two cents worth...

My idea was that they used either old spec 1 or spec 2 in Singapore and Sochi and given the milage these have they had to cut down on max power. The newest spec 3, which was introduced in Spa, should be able to handle more power. We'll see this weekend since they'll definitely want to run the spec 3 PU here.

[bonjon1979]

I can't help feeling that the drop in power might be because they really pushed the engine in it's first few races on power hungry tracks to keep in the fight. Now they have to conserve them a little bit more to get to the end without any penalties. I remember an interview with Hamilton where he was talking about how many max power laps they have in each engine and that they need to eek those out across all the GP. Maybe Ferrari pushed it hard early on to stay in the championship and now that's costing them. That feels more likely than the sensors that I think were added earlier in the summer before Spa stopping them 'cheating'. Just my two cents worth...

My idea was that they used either old spec 1 or spec 2 in Singapore and Sochi and given the milage these have they had to cut down on max power. The newest spec 3, which was introduced in Spa, should be able to handle more power. We'll see this weekend since they'll definitely want to run the spec 3 PU here.

I wondered about that but Sochi is quite power hungry and tactically I can't see how they'd want to allow Merc to stretch out the gap.

[Big Tea]

DC and KC mention that the usual 'vaping' was not evident this week. What can be the cause of it/not there?

Engine use usually goes the other way, as in more from tanked engines.

[63l8qrrfy6]

Sochi is 3rd after Spa and Monza in terms of power sensitivity - they must have run spec 3 there yet they were 0.5 s down on Merc.

Singapore is not a power sensitive circuit (only Monaco is less power sensitive) so they must have run spec 2 there, same as Merc have.

I suppose the other possibility is that they noticed something amiss with the spec 3 engines which forced them to run an older spec at Sochi or, as some have mentioned, realized that the damage from running high power modes was too high and had to run more conservatively.

If the rumours are to be believed, their extra power was mainly electrical which means that the cell duty is increased. Since cell degradation is exponential in the sense that cell ageing leads to an increase in internal resistance which in turn leads to increased temperatures causing even higher degradation I would not be at all surprised if they've suddently realized they can't quite stretch the 2 batteries they are entitled to for the whole season.

[santos]

I really don't totally belive in the story of a new sensor… If that was the case, the other teams with Ferrari engines, would also have a drop on performance. And both HAAS and Sauber, have the same performance like they had before the summer break.
I think that in Sochi, they were too much ambitious with the tyre alocation. All the practise sessions were made on hyper or ultra soft tyres, but they didn't make them work like they did on other races.

[Sieper]

But did the other Ferrari engined teams actual run a dual battery system at all?

[MtthsMlw]

But did the other Ferrari engined teams actual run a dual battery system at all?

Sure, they get the same PU. Also I wouldn't take Sochi as a comparison since wing levels between Merc and Ferrari were quite different.

[MtthsMlw]

I really don't totally belive in the story of a new sensor… If that was the case, the other teams with Ferrari engines, would also have a drop on performance. And both HAAS and Sauber, have the same performance like they had before the summer break.
I think that in Sochi, they were too much ambitious with the tyre alocation. All the practise sessions were made on hyper or ultra soft tyres, but they didn't make them work like they did on other races.

The whole discussion started with an AMuS article stating that Renaults' gps analysis showed that Ferrari lost its 'power boost' on the straights. It didn't say anything about Haas and Sauber. On the other hand Merc says that Ferrari still has the upper hand on the straights. Also you can't just simply explain Ferraris lack of pace in Singapore and Sochi with a few hp less on the straights. Many more factors come into play here e.g. different wing levels in Sochi which ofc lowered Ferraris speed down the straights.