Engine freeze - public baseline

[axle]

I read with interest recently about how Toyota's Nascar engine is being restricted to keep the power down because it was found to be more powerful than the competition.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/69432

Why has the FIA not implemented a similar test (impound all the engines after a race and dyno them) to get a baseline BHP rating so that they can work on making the units similar - which is after all only fair in an engine freeze period. It can't be fair or sporting in my opinion to leave 1 engine more powerful than the others for a few years.

If Nascar can do it whey can't F1?

It would be good for the fans to know how much power and torque these engines produce. There is no advantage if everyone is "normalised"...so that the fight can continue in other development area's.

[modbaraban]

It can't be fair or sporting in my opinion to leave 1 engine more powerful than the others for a few years.

I think it would be unfair to impose regulations in order to make one particular participant weaker NASCAR isn't a sport at all. F1 is moving in the same direction, unfortunately, so who knows?

[axle]

But an engine freeze without levelling the playing field is inherently unfair to those behind. Instead of having the oppertunity to catch up (especially in the case of teams with limited resources) you leave things in a state where the team that got to the highest peak BHP first has an advantage carved in stone for years. It's as bad as blatent cheating, nobbling a horse in a race...

I cannot see how it's fair. If the engine development is restricted it must be a level playing field, or X engine will never be able to out drag Y...etc etc.

I'm all for an engine freeze to concentrate on KERS and other exciting developments (I think they've taken petrol engines to the limit in their current guise). But how can you call it a "sport" if you don't have a level playing field.

[Scotracer]

I don't see how it's unfair -- the other teams had the same amount of time to get their engines up to standard but they didn't manage it whilst Ferrari, Mclaren and BMW did. They now pay the price. Isn't that the same as it would have been without a freeze?

[axle]

Hefty price don't you think - being FORCED to be at a disadvantage?

[zac510]

They whinged for years about the costs, threatened a breakaway and asked flat out for rule changes like this. They got them.
If they don't like it they can take their bat/ball and go home. Plenty more privateers that would like the place of a greedy manufacturer.

[Belatti]

It has been disscused in several threads that there are ways to improve engine performance, despite the frozen rule. I see your point axle, but if FIA does what you say, F1 will transform in GP2 (BTW, it already if you ask my opinion).

The problem here is that none of these 2 rules are OK for the sports, the engineers, the majority of racing fans and the drivers. No engine freeze, no equal power/public baseline.

At the end of the day I always end thinking that manufacturers (who started coming in the early 90´s when the great group C was killed by rules -Bernie suspected here) ruined F1. I would love to see them returning as engine suppliers only, let them specialize in building roofed road cars, let art be made by craftsmen!

[CMSMJ1]

Good thread Axle but probably looking at it from the wrong way. Why can't Nascar allow the other guys to catch up?
F1 is a eunuch in a sporting category where we really need balls.

The freeze was mandated and the manufacturers agreed to it as they all thought they would be the one with the best motor at the end of the developement period.

I like your point Belatti that Artisans should make racing cars, not mass producers of tin top cars..

As with all this discussion ref enginees at the moment, we cannot do anything about it as Max seems to hold the power and the teams are powerless to resist (even if they wanted to)

[Conceptual]

I don't see how it's unfair -- the other teams had the same amount of time to get their engines up to standard but they didn't manage it whilst Ferrari, Mclaren and BMW did. They now pay the price. Isn't that the same as it would have been without a freeze?

What do you think would happen if thise teams, fully knowing this, simply didn't show up at all for the rest of the season?

Or what about when a Torro Rosso or Force India start killing the Hondas/Toyotas/Renaults simply because they have a Ferrari Engine?

What happens when Toyota starts buying Ferrari engines just to be competitive? You could have 18 Ferrari engines on the grid in 2009, and 2 Mercedes.

Would you like that?

Chris

[Belatti]

Sorry Chris, one personal question:

Do you like Formula 1 of the 70´s ?

[Scotracer]

I don't see how it's unfair -- the other teams had the same amount of time to get their engines up to standard but they didn't manage it whilst Ferrari, Mclaren and BMW did. They now pay the price. Isn't that the same as it would have been without a freeze?

What do you think would happen if thise teams, fully knowing this, simply didn't show up at all for the rest of the season?

Or what about when a Torro Rosso or Force India start killing the Hondas/Toyotas/Renaults simply because they have a Ferrari Engine?

What happens when Toyota starts buying Ferrari engines just to be competitive? You could have 18 Ferrari engines on the grid in 2009, and 2 Mercedes.

Would you like that?

Chris

Well I hated the freeze so no, that wouldn't help me at all. All I'm saying is that the freeze was fair, nothing more.

[axle]

Just to clarify - I'm not suggesting engines should be capped/restricted...I think the others should catch up, HOWEVER, it's far easier to restrict....and when it comes to money the FIA will choose the cheaper option.

[axle]

I don't see how it's unfair -- the other teams had the same amount of time to get their engines up to standard but they didn't manage it whilst Ferrari, Mclaren and BMW did. They now pay the price. Isn't that the same as it would have been without a freeze?

What do you think would happen if thise teams, fully knowing this, simply didn't show up at all for the rest of the season?

Or what about when a Torro Rosso or Force India start killing the Hondas/Toyotas/Renaults simply because they have a Ferrari Engine?

What happens when Toyota starts buying Ferrari engines just to be competitive? You could have 18 Ferrari engines on the grid in 2009, and 2 Mercedes.

Would you like that?

Chris

Well I hated the freeze so no, that wouldn't help me at all. All I'm saying is that the freeze was fair, nothing more.

I can't get your logic. It's fair that company X is further ahead cause they had more money to throw at a problem? Which is what development comes down to...You think it's fair to handicap the competitors via FIA rules? You think BMW should have to play second fiddle to Ferrari, just cause their budget was bigger and BMW had split priorities (building up a new team whilst Ferrari/Mac were at full strength and running away)??

[Scotracer]

What do you think would happen if thise teams, fully knowing this, simply didn't show up at all for the rest of the season?

Or what about when a Torro Rosso or Force India start killing the Hondas/Toyotas/Renaults simply because they have a Ferrari Engine?

What happens when Toyota starts buying Ferrari engines just to be competitive? You could have 18 Ferrari engines on the grid in 2009, and 2 Mercedes.

Would you like that?

Chris

Well I hated the freeze so no, that wouldn't help me at all. All I'm saying is that the freeze was fair, nothing more.

I can't get your logic. It's fair that company X is further ahead cause they had more money to throw at a problem? Which is what development comes down to...You think it's fair to handicap the competitors via FIA rules? You think BMW should have to play second fiddle to Ferrari, just cause their budget was bigger and BMW had split priorities (building up a new team whilst Ferrari/Mac were at full strength and running away)??

But hasn't F1 always been that way? So you're saying we should remove 50% of Ferrari's budget because Torro Rosso and Force India can't compete with that? Sure, there' a budget cap coming in but the end of the freeze isn't that far away!

[modbaraban]

But how can you call it a "sport" if you don't have a level playing field.

They weren't given those engines. They made them as good as they could under the regs (same for all), or bought the engine they chosen. The NASCAR-like fairness is giving the fitter runner a set of dumbbells to level the playing field