Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

[subcritical71]

I've seen this vanadium before somewhere. It all looks promising, but it still feels like a bit of trying to get investors to bite. The claim is >$500 kW/h, which is 5x what Li-Ion storage is today. By 2020 they expect to be in the $150 kW/h neighborhood... with Li-Ion also seeing steady decrease in cost this will still be about 2x, maybe 3x, Li-Ion storage costs.

perhaps in USA, since i've read its exist in South Africa , Russia and China by 98%
just look at this Chinese massive facility for development 200MW/800MWh vanadium flow battery in Dalian, China,
which to be completed in 2019.
https://electrek.co/2017/12/21/worlds-l ... gke-power/

What is the footprints of the sites these go in, does anyone have a photo of an operating facility and its capacity? Like I said, I'm very interested and really hope this is more than hype.

[Badger16]

Gone are the days of China copying older designs from Japan or the USA...
And yeah, if the numbers are realistic and not just some random marketing aimed at attracting investments, then electric vehicles could become a real thing instead of a garget reserved to people living in big cities and using their car quite rarely ; even I don't see myself using an electric car today, even if I live in a capital city, just because I'm not sure I can keep by trips under 250km max, especially since I'll spend a lot of time in traffic jams which are "just" slow: you don't get stuck, which would allow you to stop the engine, instead you drive very, very slowly, so that it consumes energy without allowing you to advance notably.

[Greg Locock]

Vanadium redox flow batteries have been around since the early 90s and are already widely available commercially, in their niche. You can get them from Alibaba and the like eg https://www.indiamart.com/proddetail/li ... 40791.html

[Andres125sx]

Gone are the days of China copying older designs from Japan or the USA...
And yeah, if the numbers are realistic and not just some random marketing aimed at attracting investments, then electric vehicles could become a real thing instead of a garget reserved to people living in big cities and using their car quite rarely ; even I don't see myself using an electric car today, even if I live in a capital city, just because I'm not sure I can keep by trips under 250km max, especially since I'll spend a lot of time in traffic jams which are "just" slow: you don't get stuck, which would allow you to stop the engine, instead you drive very, very slowly, so that it consumes energy without allowing you to advance notably.

Actually, traffic jams is where EVs are most efficient when compared to ICEs

[Andres125sx]

Vanadium redox flow batteries have been around since the early 90s and are already widely available commercially, in their niche. You can get them from Alibaba and the like eg https://www.indiamart.com/proddetail/li ... 40791.html

How is a lift-inverterd related to VFB?


I know flow cell batteries are not new, but the article says it´s energy density has been doubled recently, so maybe that was the turning point. I had been looking to those for home systems, as their energy density is much lower to lithium batteries so for electric vehicles they´re not good, but to lower prices of home systems with big batteries where size and weight is not a problem, they surely look like a much better option to Pb batteries wich are expensive and have a very limited lifespan

[strad]

Gone are the days of China copying older designs from Japan or the USA...

True...Now they insist on having access to all plans and blueprints and intellectual properties connected to anything made by a U.S. company within China.

[Greg Locock]

I realise google translator probably didn't get all the way down the page but
"Other than the power solutions mentioned above we also deal in the followings :
VRFB ( Vanadium Redox Flow Batteries ) for emergency power storage for 20KwH to 50MwH storage"

is what we call a clue, in English.

[Ferry]

Actually, traffic jams is where EVs are most efficient when compared to ICEs

I can confirm that. My EV uses the least amount of energy pr. distance when I'm stuck in traffic. I've read approx. 40 km/h is the optimum speed for an EV for maximum range. That's 15 hours of continuous driving for a big EV. Unless it's very hot or cold so you use much energy on heating/cooling. Traffic jam is the EV drivers friend

[loner]

VW is building an all-electric vehicle factory for 300,000 cars per year in China
https://electrek.co/2018/10/19/vw-all-e ... ory-china/

[JonoNic]

I was thinking a lot about how Ferrari made clever plans with their batteries (2 battery packs charging and deploying simultaneously?) this season. Lol. I still don't understand how it works.

So in my simplified thinking. Could an EV charge the infrastructure it is using, and in turn, could the infrastructure also charge the car while it is in use?

The more cars on that infrastructure the more charge available?

[Just_a_fan]

That is a "smart grid" and is one of the things proposed for future developments. Batteries are charged and discharged according to general need in the grid - your car is charged at night when there is spare capacity, for example, and then later in the day it might have some charge "borrowed" from it during a peak energy requirement. The "borrowed" energy is then "repaid" as the peak requirement passes and spare generating capacity is available.

Of course, there are those who will say "but I want my car to be fully charged in case I need to make a maximum range journey", but the reality is that over the whole grid there is sufficient capacity that the individual doesn't get too big a hit. The naysayers are often those who don't want electric cars in the first place, of course.

[Greg Locock]

I would not want my cars hideously expensive battery to be used as infrastructure. It's a bit like those morons planning to use their Prius as back up generators instead of just going and buying a genny.

[strad]

Here's one I would jump on:
https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos ... agertyNews

[Brake Horse Power]

I've seen this vanadium before somewhere. It all looks promising, but it still feels like a bit of trying to get investors to bite. The claim is >$500 kW/h, which is 5x what Li-Ion storage is today. By 2020 they expect to be in the $150 kW/h neighborhood... with Li-Ion also seeing steady decrease in cost this will still be about 2x, maybe 3x, Li-Ion storage costs.

LiIon storage for industrial applications (higher lifetime/abuse) is more expensive than this figure is my experience. Also Lithium Ion has battery degradation and a limited lifetime. The vanadium battery has a big advantage there..

I am still wondering where all those batteries go at end of lifetime?

[strad]

Accidently cut this part off:

More importantly and interestingly for me, the 800V allows for faster charging times like we’ve seen with the Porsche Taycan. At the track being able to recharge is even more important than normal on the road use however, GM hinted it might incorporate some of this technology in its future EVs – which would be welcomed.

The all-new 800-volt battery pack enables a more efficient power transfer to the electric motor, while also supporting faster recharging, which is important for the limited time between elimination rounds in drag racing.

“Eight-hundred volts is more than twice the voltage of the battery packs in the production Chevrolet Volt and Bolt EV, so the eCOPO pushes into new technological territory,” says O’Blenes. “As GM advances its electrification leadership, a big step might just come from the drag strip.”

The battery pack is composed of four 200-volt modules, each weighing approximately 175 pounds, mounted strategically in the car for optimal weight distribution. Two are located in the rear seat area and the other two are in the trunk: one in the spare tire well and the other in the area over the rear axle.