Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Bandit1216]

Here's how I picture the whole "post shift oscillations damages" saga.

Upshifts create transmission oscillations which are transmitted through the driveline to the crankshaft. With the crankshaft twisting like a spaghetti, piston speeds can be very abnormal, leading to exotic compression curves. This in turn heats up the air in the chamber sufficiently to cause serious knocking on a handful of combustions with engines running so close to the knock limit.

To mitigate that effect, constructors have to take away a few degrees of ignition timing post upshift.

I would guess the map they ran on Gasly's engine at Suzuka was not taking enough timing away post-upshift, hence the knock, hence the need for an evo on the pistons which may have suffered in Suzuka more than what's acceptable for an engine supposed to last 6 races.

Really? I doubt torsion twisting of the crankshaft would be so much that the piston speed changes are relevant. I mean 1 stroke is 0.0025 seconds at 12000 rpm. What effect would even 1 degree of twist really mean?

Actually that would have a huge impact. The ignition timing is normally set by the crankshaft position sensor which is normally locatet at one end of the crankshaft. So if the crankshaft twists 1°, the ignitiontiming would be 1° off which could cause a power loss if the ignition happens to late or excessive knocking if it happens to early.
But a 1° twist is unrealistic in my opinion.

True. What would they be using? My car has 60 -2 missing tooth with vr sensor. Anyone know what F1 is using? Must be something a bit more advanced.

[Tommy Cookers]

......What effect would even 1 degree of twist really mean?

the crankshaft would break long before reaching 1 degree of twist
(eg the 1960s Indy Ford V8 ran at a maximum twist of 0.21 deg - ie a 3 pin V6 even today might run at 0.15 deg)
and - how does the crankshaft damper behave in this situation ?

[ispano6]

The most important Spec 3b engine upgrade were mappings and new pistons. I figured at some point the PU would require hardware changes but I'm surprised that such a change would come so quickly after the Suzuka GP. Either they had the luxury of being able to analyze the issue very quickly and produced counter-measures prior to Austin or the piston changes were planned beforehand and not related to oscillations (however they could be).

https://www.f1maximaal.nl/nieuws/formul ... da-spec-3b

[Bandit1216]

......What effect would even 1 degree of twist really mean?

the crankshaft would break long before reaching 1 degree of twist
(eg the 1960s Indy Ford V8 ran at a maximum twist of 0.21 deg - ie a 3 pin V6 even today might run at 0.15 deg)
and - how does the crankshaft damper behave in this situation ?

I agree. I'm not the one who is suggesting the shaft is made from spaghetti.

[gruntguru]

Japanese engine - not Italian! Noodles perhaps?

[Bandit1216]

Tamahagane steel perhaps.

[saviour stivala]

“the Suzuka engine got damaged because they were, after initial FIA approved, not allowed to apply the engine settings to reduce oscillations”. Honda not being allowed to apply the settings to reduce oscillations after initial FIA approval was as a result that the FIA found out that Honda was applying things other than that which were agreed upon and permitted. It have to be remembered that the cars were under parc-ferme at the time.

[nzjrs]

the FIA found out that Honda was applying things other than that which were agreed upon and permitted.

Citation required. You are the first person I have heard claiming this.

[HPD]

Toro Rosso drivers Pierre Gasly and Brendon Hartley are to use Honda’s previous specification power unit at this weekend’s Mexican Grand Prix.

However, Honda says it has a "better understanding" of its previous spec power unit in order to deal with the higher altitude conditions found at the Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez, which lies over 2,000 metres above sea level.

Honda has nonetheless used the opportunity to take on fresh Spec 3 components for Gasly’s car for FP1, meaning the Frenchman will take the sanction that leads to a back-of-the-grid start.

Gasly has taken on a new MGU-H, turbocharger and Internal Combustion Engine – his eighth of the season for all three components.

Honda chief Toyoharu Tanabe confirmed that the manufacturer had “a concern regarding the assemble of the [power unit] used in Austin.

“That PU has been sent to Sakura for a full inspection and, at the moment, we are not sure if we can use it again this year.

“By fitting a new one here we add one to the pool of available units for the rest of the season.

“However, as from FP2, and for the rest of the weekend, Gasly will run an older specification PU. Brendon is also using this spec, for the entire weekend.

“The reason for reverting to the earlier pre-Russia spec is that we have a better understanding of this version of the PU and are more confident in our ability to set it up correctly for the specific conditions here in Mexico City.”

Honda is ramping up development through the latter stages of 2018 ahead of its partnership with the front-running Red Bull team for 2019.

https://www.motorsportweek.com/news/id/20465

[saviour stivala]

the FIA found out that Honda was applying things other than that which were agreed upon and permitted.

Citation required. You are the first person I have heard claiming this.

"Today 9 oct 2018 10:36, Honda not allowed to twek its engine upgrade in Japan" (before the start of the Japanese GP Honda were forced to revert back to their previous engine settings, even though thier request to make a change was approved by the FIA----The team had its request approved by the FIA's technical delegate. however, it is believed that they did not carry out the change exactly as it was requested).
My opinion: modifying or asking to modify the car to be able to go faster after qualifying is not how racing works.
Talking of Honda, they introduced an engine uopgrade in free practice in Russia, they found out it was not yet ready to race. they qualified with the upgraded engine in Japan and still they had work to do on it, they went to US gp with it modified still more, comes today Friyday in Mexico and they changed engine back to old specification. which means the upgraded engine is still not ready to race agter 3 GP'S.

[nzjrs]

the FIA found out that Honda was applying things other than that which were agreed upon and permitted.

Citation required. You are the first person I have heard claiming this.

"Today 9 oct 2018 10:36, Honda not allowed to twek its engine upgrade in Japan" (before the start of the Japanese GP Honda were forced to revert back to their previous engine settings, even though thier request to make a change was approved by the FIA----The team had its request approved by the FIA's technical delegate. however, it is believed that they did not carry out the change exactly as it was requested).
My opinion: modifying or asking to modify the car to be able to go faster after qualifying is not how racing works.
Talking of Honda, they introduced an engine uopgrade in free practice in Russia, they found out it was not yet ready to race. they qualified with the upgraded engine in Japan and still they had work to do on it, they went to US gp with it modified still more, comes today Friyday in Mexico and they changed engine back to old specification. which means the upgraded engine is still not ready to race agter 3 GP'S.

Ok that's not a citation. Your opinion. Noted

[Snorked]

The Japanese F1 sites reported that there was a difference in torque and thus it wasn't allowed to be run for the race.

https://www.as-web.jp/f1/417792/2

[ringo]

Hmm.. all these changes and recalls smells a bit fishy from Honda. Things aren't looking so good for next year for Redbull. Honda look like they will be making lots of false promises and near misses with these engines.
They will make something almost as good as a merc or ferrari, run it for 2 sessions then recall it... then tweak.. run.. recall.. repeat until they have used 12 units for the year.

[Bill]

Honda fans are very much looking forward to next year and are excited about it.Mclaren fans need to find something to be excited about and let bygones be bygones,they seem to talk more about Honda than their team

[sn809]

Yes but even if 1 unit raced per race and they come 2nd or 3rd like Verstappen it will be ok.