Autonomous Cars

[strad]

@AJI
Yeah in the midst of an emergency I'll turn off the driver assist.
Try this real life experience of mine..
I'm traveling down the road at a legal 50mph on a damp to wet road. In the middle of a right hand curve an idiot runs a stop sign with about 30 feet between me and him. Then to make things worse he panics and stops with his nose in oncoming traffic and 80% of his car blocking most of my lane. Certainly no time to stop. So I whip my 60 something Oldsmobile to 90° put in full right hand lock and stand on the throttle to keep it from spinning and hold it in a full drift with my nose maybe a foot from his rear bumper and my right rear tire off the road on the right side . After sliding past him I once again used steering input to straighten the car and continued driving down the road as if nothing had happened.
I was able to do that due to practiced car control and I know damn well no computer could have done that. All it would have done is try to stop which it could not have done and plowed into the idiot possibly killing him and certainly injuring at least one or two of my passengers and maybe me. Passengers that told me they had never seen such great driving. The thing is it didn't even raise my heartbeat. In part because as I said I had practiced the skill required and because for me such things always happen in slow motion and I was aware of and thinking about what I was doing.
I don't even want to think about how many incidents I have avoided on ice in similar fashion.
I find you quite insulting but then you some others on here often are.

[henry]

@strad you make a good case for autonomous vehicles. Not to replace the small number of expert car controllers such as yourself but rather the much larger number of those whose situational performance generates situations such as you had to avoid.

[Big Tea]

@AJI
Yeah in the midst of an emergency I'll turn off the driver assist.
Try this real life experience of mine..
I'm traveling down the road at a legal 50mph on a damp to wet road. In the middle of a right hand curve an idiot runs a stop sign with about 30 feet between me and him. Then to make things worse he panics and stops with his nose in oncoming traffic and 80% of his car blocking most of my lane. Certainly no time to stop. So I whip my 60 something Oldsmobile to 90° put in full right hand lock and stand on the throttle to keep it from spinning and hold it in a full drift with my nose maybe a foot from his rear bumper and my right rear tire off the road on the right side . After sliding past him I once again used steering input to straighten the car and continued driving down the road as if nothing had happened.
I was able to do that due to practiced car control and I know damn well no computer could have done that. All it would have done is try to stop which it could not have done and plowed into the idiot possibly killing him and certainly injuring at least one or two of my passengers and maybe me. Passengers that told me they had never seen such great driving. The thing is it didn't even raise my heartbeat. In part because as I said I had practiced the skill required and because for me such things always happen in slow motion and I was aware of and thinking about what I was doing.
I don't even want to think about how many incidents I have avoided on ice in similar fashion.
I find you quite insulting but then you some others on here often are.

But an autonomous car would not have run the red light ( )

[AJI]

Strad,

First of all if you feel I've insulted you I sincerely apologise, it was never my intention. You started this topic, it's yours, and IMO the person who started the topic is the unofficial moderator, so I'm thankful to be a part of the discussion.

If you look at my comments carefully you will see that I do in-fact tacitly agree with your assessment of whether every driver should have your Steve McQueen skill set. The part we dissagree on is you think it's teachable to/learnable by everyone, and I think that barely 1 in 10,000 will ever reach that level of confidence and car control. 'We', the f1technical - petrol head - track day - tyre burning power sliders, are the minority...
Henry and big T have already pointed out the obvious counter to your scenario, so I'll leave it at that.

On a personal note, I'm very interested in this topic as due to a degenerative eye disease I am slowly losing my sight.
Hopefully medical research will come up with something before it's too late..? My plan B, an autonomous vehicle.

Respectfully,

AJI

[strad]

Henry & Big T...You're talking about a time (far in the future) when we are ALL forced into A/Vs.
SO in the meantime what we are discussing is Semi Autonomous Vehicles with accident avoidance electronics and I say they give a false sense on confidence, lack of attention to driving and avoidance of responsibility.
It was said that the talent is 1/10,000. I say that's only because people don't practice and don't have a clue as to what their cars are capable of. Over half the people I share the road with brake mid-corner, come to almost a stop to make a simple 90° right turn etc. etc.. Many more don't know the rules of the road and worst of all IMO is they don't want to learn. They leave it to us to watch out for and allow for them.
Until we have 100% autonomous cars I think every person should hone their skills and become as proficient as possible instead of being a danger and rolling road block.
I think fully half (at least) of the people on the road should now be allowed a license or be able to drive. I understand you think that's an argument for A/Vs but I maintain that once 100% of people are in A/Vs is when Chaos Factor will rear it's ugly head.
@AJI
I try not too be rude and self monitor a lot of things I think of saying and maybe sometimes I don't succeed but I feel there are some, maybe not you, but some who are purposely rude and denigrate anyone who doesn't agree with them.

[subcritical71]

@strad.. I always have trouble, I feel, coming across how I feel on a forum. I hope I am not one of those you classify as rude as I try to respect all opinions and am a pretty humble person. While I agree with most of your points I feel we disagree with how we will get to full AV. This to me is good as only then can we see where all the gaps exist (in case anyone cars to ask is). Anyway, thanks for the good discussion.

[Big Tea]

@strad.. I always have trouble, I feel, coming across how I feel on a forum. I hope I am not one of those you classify as rude as I try to respect all opinions and am a pretty humble person. While I agree with most of your points I feel we disagree with how we will get to full AV. This to me is good as only then can we see where all the gaps exist (in case anyone cars to ask is). Anyway, thanks for the good discussion.

Seconded. There is never quite the right smiley to add. No offense to anyone intended. (in any of my posts)

[henry]

Henry & Big T...You're talking about a time (far in the future) when we are ALL forced into A/Vs.
SO in the meantime what we are discussing is Semi Autonomous Vehicles with accident avoidance electronics and I say they give a false sense on confidence, lack of attention to driving and avoidance of responsibility.
It was said that the talent is 1/10,000. I say that's only because people don't practice and don't have a clue as to what their cars are capable of. Over half the people I share the road with brake mid-corner, come to almost a stop to make a simple 90° right turn etc. etc.. Many more don't know the rules of the road and worst of all IMO is they don't want to learn. They leave it to us to watch out for and allow for them.
Until we have 100% autonomous cars I think every person should hone their skills and become as proficient as possible instead of being a danger and rolling road block.
I think fully half (at least) of the people on the road should now be allowed a license or be able to drive. I understand you think that's an argument for A/Vs but I maintain that once 100% of people are in A/Vs is when Chaos Factor will rear it's ugly head.
@AJI
I try not too be rude and self monitor a lot of things I think of saying and maybe sometimes I don't succeed but I feel there are some, maybe not you, but some who are purposely rude and denigrate anyone who doesn't agree with them.

As I have said in an earlier post, I don’t think general purpose, L5, vehicles are going to be with us any time soon. However, some of the technologies that will be developed to assist the L4 roll outs will also trickle down into regular vehicles. For instance Vehicle to Vehicle communications, V2V and Vehicle to Infrastructure, V2I. These would mean that you, if using a modern vehicle, would be alerted to the vehicle approaching from the side and the other vehicle would be warned of the red light or even forced to stop.

I suggest it is much more likely that these capabilities will exist in 10 years time than that general road users will improve their car handling skills.

IMO in public road driving car handling skills are much less important than situational awareness and situation management. The latter two are areas that automation can firstly provide assistance to drivers, and as time passes take over.

[strad]

I never mind others not agreeing with me nor civil debate.
I feel we can disagree without rude or denigrating comments and for the most part we do that.
I think it's just that certain members have a superiority complex.

[Andres125sx]

@AJI
Yeah in the midst of an emergency I'll turn off the driver assist.
Try this real life experience of mine..
I'm traveling down the road at a legal 50mph on a damp to wet road. In the middle of a right hand curve an idiot runs a stop sign with about 30 feet between me and him. Then to make things worse he panics and stops with his nose in oncoming traffic and 80% of his car blocking most of my lane. Certainly no time to stop. So I whip my 60 something Oldsmobile to 90° put in full right hand lock and stand on the throttle to keep it from spinning and hold it in a full drift with my nose maybe a foot from his rear bumper and my right rear tire off the road on the right side . After sliding past him I once again used steering input to straighten the car and continued driving down the road as if nothing had happened.
I was able to do that due to practiced car control and I know damn well no computer could have done that. All it would have done is try to stop which it could not have done and plowed into the idiot possibly killing him and certainly injuring at least one or two of my passengers and maybe me. Passengers that told me they had never seen such great driving. The thing is it didn't even raise my heartbeat. In part because as I said I had practiced the skill required and because for me such things always happen in slow motion and I was aware of and thinking about what I was doing.
I don't even want to think about how many incidents I have avoided on ice in similar fashion.
I find you quite insulting but then you some others on here often are.

Looking at this debate from an expert driver point of view is easy, but I´m trying to look at it from a general point of view Strad, so two comments to this:

1- Now imagine you´re the one into the car in front and the idiot is at your back and getting closer too fast.... what would you prefer controlling that car? An average human driver or a computer?

2- Maybe you don´t know as you look as a vintage cars fan, but today ESP can control each wheel brake independently, wich means computers have much better control of the car than ANY human can. Not even Loeb can do what modern ESP systems do, as not even he can use one wheel brake or three wheels brakes to hit the brakes mid-corner and keep the car on its path. Computers can, and do it flawlesly, it looks like magic when you test it yourself as they can do things wich were simply not possible before. Your comments about power sliding instantly brought this subject to my mind because that is one of those situations where a computer would and will stop the car in time and without juggler maneouvers only one driver each some thousands can do. That´s necessary because we can´t control each wheel disc independently so if applying brakes we will spin or understeer (or slow down slowly), but a computer can and will apply differential braking to slow down quickly without spinning or understeering



Basically what I mean is even today computers can do thing no human can do, so in my mind there´s no doubt when first L5 car comes out, it will be several orders of magnitude safer than the average human driver, and even safer than the most expert driver

[loner]

Basically what I mean is even today computers can do thing no human can do

[Phil]

Absolutely irrelevant. There is no point in arguing about good drivers or not good bad drivers. The road and safety laws are fairly sophisticated enough to make it a non-issue.

- you must abide the speed limit
- you must adapt your speed if the situation requires it (drive slower than the speed limit)
- you must leave adequate space to the car in front
- your focus must always be on the road
- there are specific rules how maneuvers take place on the road.
- etc

There are even laws that require that the car must be in a safe condition, at the responsibility of the driver. Anything beyond this, is against the law and there are clearly defined punishments for it (vary from country to country), ranging from fines to even jail time.

If accidents still happen, it’s a matter of law execution. In either case, the liability and accountability question is solved. You go over the speed limit, you are doing it at your own risk and are breaking the law. Either way, breaking the law will (sooner or later) get you into trouble. There is a definite correlation between the enforcement of law, increased penalties and crime rate.

This topic should really move beyond the issue of “ooh there are dangerous drivers out there”. Guess what, there are bad people who commit murder/rape/theft out there too, but we dont want to replace them with robots too. That is why we have laws and why theye should be enforced.

With the increase in population, there is a growing need to stricten laws and its execution in the name of safety. Same applies to road safety too.

Or maybe we should just start to ban humans?

[henry]

Meanwhile:

In the level4 urban environment Waymo are carrying non-paying passengers in driverless Chrysler Pacificas and fee paying, but still human supervised, in Phoenix, Arizona.

They have just acquired a license to test completely driverless in California, up to 65mph and in specific geographies around their head office.

In the L4 minus space on highways Tesla have begun, slowly, to roll out V9 of their software that does cruise control, lane keeping and changing and on and off ramp navigation. The display of surrounding vehicles in the centre screen is impressive.

I think this shows two different approaches to monetising. Waymo are focused on selling a service, Tesla on selling cars. Both claim they can migrate into the other space. I personally think Waymo are tackling the harder computing problem and Tesla the harder engineering, from a commercial viability perspective.

Elsewhere collaboration deals are rampant as at the board level major manufacturers worry their business model is about to suffer a major assault.

[Greg Locock]

@AJI
Yeah in the midst of an emergency I'll turn off the driver assist.
Try this real life experience of mine..
I'm traveling down the road at a legal 50mph on a damp to wet road. In the middle of a right hand curve an idiot runs a stop sign with about 30 feet between me and him. Then to make things worse he panics and stops with his nose in oncoming traffic and 80% of his car blocking most of my lane. Certainly no time to stop. So I whip my 60 something Oldsmobile to 90° put in full right hand lock and stand on the throttle to keep it from spinning and hold it in a full drift with my nose maybe a foot from his rear bumper and my right rear tire off the road on the right side . After sliding past him I once again used steering input to straighten the car and continued driving down the road as if nothing had happened.
I was able to do that due to practiced car control and I know damn well no computer could have done that. All it would have done is try to stop which it could not have done and plowed into the idiot possibly killing him and certainly injuring at least one or two of my passengers and maybe me. Passengers that told me they had never seen such great driving. The thing is it didn't even raise my heartbeat. In part because as I said I had practiced the skill required and because for me such things always happen in slow motion and I was aware of and thinking about what I was doing.

You were driving at a speed that would not allow you to stop within your limits of vision.

Yes, we all do it. But you were driving too fast for the conditions. Luckily you got away with it.

I live on a gravel road. I am very used to driving on gravel roads at high speeds. But I am well aware that when a tree falls across the road around a blind corner that if I am driving at 100 kph I will be dead. So I slow down for corners, even if i could take them at cruising speed.

[Andres125sx]

Absolutely irrelevant. There is no point in arguing about good drivers or not good bad drivers. The road and safety laws are fairly sophisticated enough to make it a non-issue.

- you must abide the speed limit
- you must adapt your speed if the situation requires it (drive slower than the speed limit)
- you must leave adequate space to the car in front
- your focus must always be on the road
- there are specific rules how maneuvers take place on the road.
- etc

There are even laws that require that the car must be in a safe condition, at the responsibility of the driver. Anything beyond this, is against the law and there are clearly defined punishments for it (vary from country to country), ranging from fines to even jail time.

If accidents still happen, it’s a matter of law execution. In either case, the liability and accountability question is solved. You go over the speed limit, you are doing it at your own risk and are breaking the law. Either way, breaking the law will (sooner or later) get you into trouble. There is a definite correlation between the enforcement of law, increased penalties and crime rate.

This topic should really move beyond the issue of “ooh there are dangerous drivers out there”. Guess what, there are bad people who commit murder/rape/theft out there too, but we dont want to replace them with robots too. That is why we have laws and why theye should be enforced.

With the increase in population, there is a growing need to stricten laws and its execution in the name of safety. Same applies to road safety too.

Or maybe we should just start to ban humans?

So you think people can respect laws 100%, and also that if people respect laws, there will be no accidents

I disagree with both assumptions Phil