Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

[Big Tea]

There is a vid here far from complete and done 'lite' but interesting.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RhtiPefVzM

[zac510]

That is a "smart grid" and is one of the things proposed for future developments. Batteries are charged and discharged according to general need in the grid - your car is charged at night when there is spare capacity, for example, and then later in the day it might have some charge "borrowed" from it during a peak energy requirement. The "borrowed" energy is then "repaid" as the peak requirement passes and spare generating capacity is available.

Of course, there are those who will say "but I want my car to be fully charged in case I need to make a maximum range journey", but the reality is that over the whole grid there is sufficient capacity that the individual doesn't get too big a hit. The naysayers are often those who don't want electric cars in the first place, of course.

This is getting quite off-topic, but having spare capacity during the night might change as we move towards more solar power; see the "solar power duck curve" on your favourite search engine to see how we might become biased towards daylight power.
I've also read some interesting stuff about the future of paying for this infrastructure. Currently we all buy (almost all of) our power from a power station/supplier and hence it's easy to tax and isolate the funding for general infrastructure like power lines, transformers, billing/admin and so on. If we all start generating our own power from solar cells on our home (to the extent of not needing the grid), then the funding for such infrastructure will have to come from other sources or the government.
It's an interesting change in the whole industry.

[strad]

I wouldn't take those numbers as gospel. The guy in the video repeatedly shows his bias.
The electric is probably better but not by as far as he indicates.

[Big Tea]

I wouldn't take those numbers as gospel. The guy in the video repeatedly shows his bias.
The electric is probably better but not by as far as he indicates.

As I said, the 'lite' version. I have watched many of his vids and he does seem to try to be fair, but everyone is bias one way or the other, even if we don't realise ourselves.

[Just_a_fan]

That seemed like a fairly even assessment of the situation to me. He states his assumptions and why he's made them, he's given sources for his figures. He front loaded the EV in favour of the ICE. He showed that depending on where in the US you are, the results vary. Not sure what else he could do to be fairer in a short video.

The big thing to take away from the video is knowing where your electricity comes from. If you're buying "coal electricity" and you change your car regularly, then you're doing no good. If you buy "renewable electricity" and/or you change your car infrequently, then you can be beneficial in terms of emissions reductions. It was interesting as a non-US resident to see that you can see state-by-state what your electricity generation mix is. That's cool and very useful in this discussion and any decision made as to vehicle choice/use.

Bear in mind also that he's only looking at CO2. The big issue these days is not CO2 but urban air quality. Air quality focusses on NOx and particulates (PM10, for example) along with some other pollutants. An electric car wins that argument hands down every time because it doesn't generate those pollutants in the urban environment.

Of course, there will be those for whom the ability to hop in the car and do a several hundred miles in a day is a deal breaker. But the majority of people don't do that, they commute locally and do about 30 miles a day in the US (https://newsroom.aaa.com/2015/04/new-st ... sts-drive/). That's easy EV territory right there. Indeed, for increasing numbers of EVs, you could do more than a couple of days between charges if required.

I used to do 30,000 miles a year - a commute of 50 miles each way plus up to 50 miles a day for work during the day. That was just about possible with an EV at the time so long as I could access the charge point in the car park. Of course, that wouldn't always be possible which made it a no go for me, sadly. The biggest issue I noticed with the charge points, is that some EV owners seem to think that "electric vehicles only" markings meant they could use the space just to park - they wouldn't be charging, just parking! Relatively small changes to infrastructure would make that sort of commute/use mix a reality for many people.

I'm a bit of a hypocrite as I don't have an EV even though I think they're "a good thing". I currently have a diesel Range Rover - just about the worst alternative in the eyes of many! Now, I use the RR for towing and it goes off road so it isn't just a "Chelsea Tractor" (UK insult for 4x4s that just drive on the roads). EVs don't really do towing yet and certainly not the 2.5t I need for the horse trailer. To counter my hypocrisy, I do intend to get an EV once my newly formed company is doing well enough. I now work from home and my daily use is less than before - still often over 100 miles a day but within current EV ranges. Most of that is rural driving so my current vehicle isn't amking the urban air any worse (he says, trying to excuse his vehicle choices! )

[Tommy Cookers]

........If you buy "renewable electricity" .......

.....Bear in mind also that he's only looking at CO2. The big issue these days is not CO2 but urban air quality. Air quality focusses on NOx and particulates (PM10, for example) along with some other pollutants. An electric car wins that argument hands down every time because it doesn't generate those pollutants in the urban environment.

no-one can buy renewable electricity - we all buy a mix

the 'evil diesel' cars don't make significant NOx in city driving (even the tests for 'BBC dieselgate' showed this)
and 75% of London particulates now come from 'green' heaters burning wood
(UK tax money 'reducing' world CO2 by increasing UK particulates)
though (as the Government says) UK city air pollution continues to fall

yes I think EVs should be compulsory for UK city dwellers - as this might stop the whining

the R.C.P. & C.H.Report is said by our lying BBC to show 40000 annual UK early deaths due to air pollution
it's a report on other's studies and (as with BBC's 'dieselgate') those do not show what the BBC says the report shows
the 'early' deaths that some studies imply are on average premature by 5 weeks in 70 years of life

[Just_a_fan]

........If you buy "renewable electricity" .......

no-one can buy renewable electricity - we all buy a mix

The comment about renewable electricity was in a paragraph about the the US and the various mixes available there - the differences are quite marked as shown in the video. In some states, renewables make up by far the biggest part, in others it's coal. That was why I used the terms I did and placed them in quote marks.

In the UK, you can buy your electricity from a supplier that only buys from renewable sources. Sure, the actual electrons in your wires might come from anywhere, but the ability to choose means the market changes to suit. More people wanting non-fossil electricity means the generators will change to suit over time.

Some people go further and have PV that they use to partially charge their EV. In the UK, this won't go far enough to give one off-grid EV useage, sadly, as we don't get enough sunshine. Other parts of the world can, however.

As usual, it's about getting the balance right.

As for wood burners in cities, the Govt is looking at making changes there too.

[Andres125sx]

........If you buy "renewable electricity" .......

.....Bear in mind also that he's only looking at CO2. The big issue these days is not CO2 but urban air quality. Air quality focusses on NOx and particulates (PM10, for example) along with some other pollutants. An electric car wins that argument hands down every time because it doesn't generate those pollutants in the urban environment.

no-one can buy renewable electricity - we all buy a mix

yes and no

Yes we all buy a mix as there´s only one grid supplying everyone

But no you can buy from a company wich only produce renewable energy, so even if "your" electricity will come from a mix, "others" electricity will have a higher percentage of renewable energy thanks to you


So you can buy only renewable electricity, then that renewable energy is mixed into the grid, but you´re paying a company wich only produce renewable so you´re supporting renewables, and also lowering the CO2 footprint of electricity from a global point of view wich is the point in the end

[Greg Locock]

"In the UK, this won't go far enough to give one off-grid EV useage, sadly, as we don't get enough sunshine. Other parts of the world can, however."

Well let's try sunny Australia. My 5 kW solar generates 7000 kWh over a year. So that'd push a Tesla about 21000 miles, at 3 miles per kWh. Great, let's go electric.

Sadly, in winter I only get an average of 8 kWh per day, rather restricting my ability to drive an EV anywhere useful, since I live 20+ miles from the nearest town worthy of the name.

Of course I can get around this by installing more panels, or by going on-grid and using reliable energy for when the sun doesn't shine.

Off grid EVs are a pipe dream even in Australia, if you want to use them all year round.

[Andres125sx]

Only with solar panels, yes, but any reason you don´t install some wind turbines to generate electricity more constantly?

[Just_a_fan]

Sadly, in winter I only get an average of 8 kWh per day, rather restricting my ability to drive an EV anywhere useful, since I live 20+ miles from the nearest town worthy of the name.

Assuming you want to drive every day. I know people who work from home and use their car once a week to go shopping etc. Also, many people are in urban environments where they only drive a handful of miles a day. Sure, they may be better off using some other mode of transport but that's a different argument.

You see, whilst an EV may not fit in to your life (or more accurately it isn't what you want in your life), it can work very well for other people. "Horses for courses" and all that.

[Big Tea]

The guy I posted above has another vid out concerning an electric car he has used for 6 months

I know some did not like him, but I have watched him for some time and find him 'honest' in his reports.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo4byxhI6kY


(BTW, many of his other vids are worth looking at, even though you will 'skip through' many.)

[Cold Fussion]

His point that if you're going to have a boring car why not make it electric is a good one, unfortunately a boring mid size hatch in Australia will be between 20-35k AUD, where as all these electric hatches start north of 50k AUD. For example a Renault Zoe has a listed drive away price of 54k AUD, where a decidedly non-boring Megane RS has a list price of 52k AUD. A base clio (which has similar performance and size numbers to a Zoe) starts at 20k AUD. The 30k price difference can buy roughly 15-20000 liters of fuel which is more than enough outlast the 5 year warranty period for most people.

[Andres125sx]

Yeah they´re too expensive yet.

One think I will love from EVs is to be able to hit the throttle hard even when it´s completely cold. On a daily routine I´m tired of the warm up period of ICEs, and since I live pretty close to my job, when it´s warm I´ve almost arrived. I usually am in a hurry as I´m one of those who need some time to be a person in the morning, and being forced to not accelerate hard even if in a hurry is exasperating sometimes

[Just_a_fan]

unfortunately a boring mid size hatch in Australia will be between 20-35k AUD, where as all these electric hatches start north of 50k AUD.

I guess one problem for Australia generally is that so much is imported. And so much of that comes a long way. Perhaps a home-grown choice might be more economic?