Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[gandharva]

Honda signs deal to ramp up F1 turbo development

The deal will last for two years and the first parts from the new co-operation will arrive as part of Honda’s 2019 power unit.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... t/3213034/

[Bandit1216]

In my personal opinion present turbo ICE combustion:- with fuel injected no less than 60 degrees BTDC compression stroke with around 30 degrees spark advance depending on fuel formulation being used, and with precession combustion pressure measurement by build-in measuring sensor and the capability to control each cylinder individually, programed for the peak combustion pressure point to be reached at 14 degrees after TDC is how the present insane combustion process and pressures are managed.

I have to say you are very wrong here! There is less need to advance spark timing with TJI. The jet ignition speed is so fast you can pretty much take out all that advance. There are many papers on it and the timing range it is used at. I won't say the figures here because my memory is not that good, but advance is way less than the typical engine.. probably in the 10 to 20 deg range, whereas a typical ICE could be over 35 deg.

I agree. I think I have read somewhere that flame speed can go up to 60 m/s with very lean mixtures so a lot less advance is needed.

[saviour stivala]

In my personal opinion present turbo ICE combustion:- with fuel injected no less than 60 degrees BTDC compression stroke with around 30 degrees spark advance depending on fuel formulation being used, and with precession combustion pressure measurement by build-in measuring sensor and the capability to control each cylinder individually, programed for the peak combustion pressure point to be reached at 14 degrees after TDC is how the present insane combustion process and pressures are managed.

I have to say you are very wrong here! There is less need to advance spark timing with TJI. The jet ignition speed is so fast you can pretty much take out all that advance. There are many papers on it and the timing range it is used at. I won't say the figures here because my memory is not that good, but advance is way less than the typical engine.. probably in the 10 to 20 deg range, whereas a typical ICE could be over 35 deg.

I agree. I think I have read somewhere that flame speed can go up to 60 m/s with very lean mixtures so a lot less advance is needed.

I agreed with platinum zealot about the need for less ignition advance when TJI combustion system is used and gave my opinion as to why.

[saviour stivala]

Honda signs deal to ramp up F1 turbo development

The deal will last for two years and the first parts from the new co-operation will arrive as part of Honda’s 2019 power unit.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... t/3213034/

Yes its a deal called "to ramp-up" F1 turbo development. other than that Honda have always worked with IHI (ishikawajima-harima heavy industries). the 1980 RA167/8E 1.5 lite turbo employed a ceramic turbine wheel as well as a ceramic bearing.

[saviour stivala]

The resultant fast flame speed when TJI combustion system is used that reduces the need for much ignition advance is the result of the main combustion chamber contents being ignited by a fast flame that is the result of an already combusted small content by a spark plug inside a pre-chamber. But talking about such technical matters regarding high speed operation of a F1 engine the following should be born in mind. A faster combustion (time wise) is not necessary a stronger and more complete combustion than a slower combustion, again (time wise). The present 1.6L T V6 ICE spending most of its racing life at a max power speed of 10500RPM fires all 6 cylinders 5250 times in one minute. The previous 2.4L NA V8 spending most of its racing life at a max power speed of 17500RPM used to fire all 8 cylinders 8750 time in one minute, at that time teams were using both fast burn formulated fuel as well as slow burn, depending on circuit specifics. In both cases (both types of ICE) the ignition advance used is solely aimed to move the maximum combustion pressure point to 14 degrees ATDC power stroke.

[Blackout]

F1i magazine

[Tommy Cookers]

The resultant fast flame speed when TJI combustion system is used that reduces the need for much ignition advance ...
......A faster combustion (time wise) is not necessary a stronger and more complete combustion than a slower combustion, again (time wise).......The previous 2.4L NA V8 ....at that time teams were using both fast burn formulated fuel as well as slow burn, depending on circuit specifics. In both cases (both types of ICE) the ignition advance used is solely aimed to move the maximum combustion pressure point to 14 degrees ATDC power stroke.

the TJI etc is for use with abnormally lean (so slow burning) mixtures - (how) would it need less advance than the conventional ?
some may soon be claiming that TJI cures cancer and turns water into wine

the 2.4 V8s didn't use fast burning fuel and slow burning fuel
they used fast burning fuel where rather low volume-specific or mass-specific heat content was tolerable
and rather fast burning fuel where a higher volume-specific or mass-specific heat content was required
they used 60 deg or more ignition advance

btw (V10? F1 Ferrari tests in a measurement journal) had inconsistent combustion in some cylinders unless plenty rich

[Snorked]

F1i magazine
http://sf.viepratique.fr/wp-content/upl ... _honda.jpg

The F1technical admin / owner should contact Honda's press office to get the full set of official PU photos, there's a second one released on the IHI website, but in small resolution:

[Bandit1216]

The resultant fast flame speed when TJI combustion system is used that reduces the need for much ignition advance ...
......A faster combustion (time wise) is not necessary a stronger and more complete combustion than a slower combustion, again (time wise).......The previous 2.4L NA V8 ....at that time teams were using both fast burn formulated fuel as well as slow burn, depending on circuit specifics. In both cases (both types of ICE) the ignition advance used is solely aimed to move the maximum combustion pressure point to 14 degrees ATDC power stroke.

the TJI etc is for use with abnormally lean (so slow burning) mixtures - (how) would it need less advance than the conventional ?
some may soon be claiming that TJI cures cancer and turns water into wine

the 2.4 V8s didn't use fast burning fuel and slow burning fuel
they used fast burning fuel where rather low volume-specific or mass-specific heat content was tolerable
and rather fast burning fuel where a higher volume-specific or mass-specific heat content was required
they used 60 deg or more ignition advance

btw (V10? F1 Ferrari tests in a measurement journal) had inconsistent combustion in some cylinders unless plenty rich

Sorry, I thought lean mixture resulted in faster flame speed.

[godlameroso]

Why would less fuel react faster than more fuel?

[kasio]

Why would less fuel react faster than more fuel?

yes! with practical analogy when burning wood in stove. if you let a lot of oxigen in it burns slmost like a rocket. so yes more oxygen would make reaction faster.

[saviour stivala]

The resultant fast flame speed when TJI combustion system is used that reduces the need for much ignition advance ...
......A faster combustion (time wise) is not necessary a stronger and more complete combustion than a slower combustion, again (time wise).......The previous 2.4L NA V8 ....at that time teams were using both fast burn formulated fuel as well as slow burn, depending on circuit specifics. In both cases (both types of ICE) the ignition advance used is solely aimed to move the maximum combustion pressure point to 14 degrees ATDC power stroke.

the TJI etc is for use with abnormally lean (so slow burning) mixtures - (how) would it need less advance than the conventional ?
some may soon be claiming that TJI cures cancer and turns water into wine

the 2.4 V8s didn't use fast burning fuel and slow burning fuel
they used fast burning fuel where rather low volume-specific or mass-specific heat content was tolerable
and rather fast burning fuel where a higher volume-specific or mass-specific heat content was required
they used 60 deg or more ignition advance

btw (V10? F1 Ferrari tests in a measurement journal) had inconsistent combustion in some cylinders unless plenty rich

Mahle jet ignition:- "The main charge is extensively ignited and a faster burn-through and presure build-up is generated".
During the NA 2.4L V8 era fast burn as well as slow burn fuel formulated in acordance as per regulations was being used depending on cercuits specifics.

[saviour stivala]

In an ICE when the ‘fire’ is lit it is a burn-not an explosion (that would be like detonation). As the RPM increases there is less time for maximum cylinder pressure to be reached at the right place in piston travel (crank degrees). So the ‘fire’ is lighted sooner to get max pressure at the right place/time.

[godlameroso]

That only works with a rich mixture, adding unreactive air to a lean mixture has the same effect as diluting the AF mixture with EGR.

[saviour stivala]

When the mean PPP (peak pressure position) is not optimum the variations in the output torque are minimal. When the optimum PPP lies some degrees off from optimum the resulting output torque variations are larger. PPP is the position in crank angle for pressure peak (pressure peak position).
Different ignition angles for different engine speed and load changes the laminar burning velocity as well as the flame angle and flame speed.
In the NA 2.4L V8 era both fast burn and slow burn fuel was being formulated and used according to circuit specifics needs, these fuels were formulated to FIA fuel regulations specifications. Different fuels formulation use between races I believe are not permitted by the rules nowadays. Anyhow the technical benefit results of those efforts only the fuel formulator and the user could tell, but it is worth mentioning a particular test comparison and it’s results between F1 formulated fuel and that formulated for normal road car use of which both are as per FIA fuel formulation. In 2011 FERRARI/Shell used a 2 year old (2009) as per FIA testing regulations FERRARI F1 F60 with its tipo 056 2.4L NA V8 Driven by Alonso at Fiorano. 4 laps ran using FI fuel resulted in a best lap time of 1:03.950. 4 laps ran using Shell normal road pump fuel resulted in a best lap time 9/10ths slower but the road pump fuel produced a faster top speed. These finding were shown in telemetry recordings for all to see at the time.