It IS well integrated. It's quite extreme like the Redbull, just the opposite way. And they've had relatively better reliability in a short installation period as well. Some talented engineers at the team.
It IS well integrated. It's quite extreme like the Redbull, just the opposite way. And they've had relatively better reliability in a short installation period as well. Some talented engineers at the team.
So the solution to it's aero sensitivity was to turn up the wing angles, making them more sensitive?f1rules wrote: ↑12 Dec 2018, 11:05shared on autosport, nice article on amus wth qoutes from stella and morris
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... en-schief/
Amus: the mcl was not able to keep constant/stabile df through the whole corner. To counter that and get more stability they ran more wing which contributed to the lower top speeds
Considering how only McLaren and Williams have fallen back and everyone else has improved, we can make the assumption that everyone has gotten (more) to grips with it. After which you should ask yourself how teams with much less resources can get a grip on it but you can't.Amus: mclaren was not the only team having trouble keeping constant df. Stella explains its due to the wider cars, and says the biggest challenge of the aerodynamic team is to control front wheel wake since the frontwheels are now bigger hence producing more turbulence. This is even more critical due to the wider floor.
Is this so far behind compared to the top teams?Then he mentions they reached the borders of what can be simulated with cfd and windtunnel.
WTF?! That is completely contradicting what was said before. If your issue is sensitivity you would notice this in the fast corners, where aero matters more than in slow corners.Stella: in fast corners our car was not that bad. Our deficit was mainly in slow corners. And that part is extremly difficult to simulate with cfd and windtunnel.
Huh?Simon roberts: is confident all problems has been identified. It was a long process, not something that happened one day to the other.We could have introduced soultions to the current car but that would have added weight.
Again contradicting itself.That why the development was slow during the sec half of the year. Stella adds. Its not as if we lacked ideas.The concept just had its limitations and many of the changes would not have had an impact.
we will see if they have an idea, i think its a interesting interview, where they admit it took time due to the complex nature of these cars but they are confident to have identified the problemswesley123 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2018, 12:17So the solution to it's aero sensitivity was to turn up the wing angles, making them more sensitive?f1rules wrote: ↑12 Dec 2018, 11:05shared on autosport, nice article on amus wth qoutes from stella and morris
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... en-schief/
Amus: the mcl was not able to keep constant/stabile df through the whole corner. To counter that and get more stability they ran more wing which contributed to the lower top speeds
stabilising with more wing yes
Considering how only McLaren and Williams have fallen back and everyone else has improved, we can make the assumption that everyone has gotten (more) to grips with it. After which you should ask yourself how teams with much less resources can get a grip on it but you can't.Amus: mclaren was not the only team having trouble keeping constant df. Stella explains its due to the wider cars, and says the biggest challenge of the aerodynamic team is to control front wheel wake since the frontwheels are now bigger hence producing more turbulence. This is even more critical due to the wider floor.
Is this so far behind compared to the top teams?Then he mentions they reached the borders of what can be simulated with cfd and windtunnel.
WTF?! That is completely contradicting what was said before. If your issue is sensitivity you would notice this in the fast corners, where aero matters more than in slow corners.Stella: in fast corners our car was not that bad. Our deficit was mainly in slow corners. And that part is extremly difficult to simulate with cfd and windtunnel.
the 2017 car
Huh?Simon roberts: is confident all problems has been identified. It was a long process, not something that happened one day to the other.We could have introduced soultions to the current car but that would have added weight.
thats what it says, sounds reasonable to me, they needed time to get the puzzle together
Again contradicting itself.That why the development was slow during the sec half of the year. Stella adds. Its not as if we lacked ideas.The concept just had its limitations and many of the changes would not have had an impact.
development meaning ,not a lot of parts was brought to the actual race car im interpetating, because the concept/problem would mask the gains, this is not the same as no development going on
Now I'm just hoping that a lot of stuff is lost in translation, because this makes very little sense.
I particularly like the 'we could have' idea. Imagine a soccer team that is in last place in the league saying they're actually the best team in the league, as they 'could have scored more goals'. It's a child's way of saying he wasn't actually as good at it as he thought he was.
Out of all the articles that are posted I can only read one thing; They have no clue.
But I suppose we're going to see if they figured it out next year.
The point is that increasing wing angles increases the sensitivity. It's weird to make it more sensitive when sensitivity is already a problem.
My question comes from saying it added weight. Are they trying to make body parts out of tungsten?Huh?
thats what it says, sounds reasonable to me, they needed time to get the puzzle together
It contradicts itself with the sentence above, where it was said that they could have introduced solutions.Again contradicting itself.
development meaning ,not a lot of parts was brought to the actual race car im interpetating, because the concept/problem would mask the gains, this is not the same as no development going on
- They can turn up the wing angles without putting the wing into the stall region. As long as the wing operates out of the stall region then this will work through 2 ways:wesley123 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2018, 12:17So the solution to it's aero sensitivity was to turn up the wing angles, making them more sensitive?f1rules wrote: ↑12 Dec 2018, 11:05shared on autosport, nice article on amus wth qoutes from stella and morris
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... en-schief/
Amus: the mcl was not able to keep constant/stabile df through the whole corner. To counter that and get more stability they ran more wing which contributed to the lower top speeds
Considering how only McLaren and Williams have fallen back and everyone else has improved, we can make the assumption that everyone has gotten (more) to grips with it. After which you should ask yourself how teams with much less resources can get a grip on it but you can't.Amus: mclaren was not the only team having trouble keeping constant df. Stella explains its due to the wider cars, and says the biggest challenge of the aerodynamic team is to control front wheel wake since the frontwheels are now bigger hence producing more turbulence. This is even more critical due to the wider floor.
Is this so far behind compared to the top teams?Then he mentions they reached the borders of what can be simulated with cfd and windtunnel.
WTF?! That is completely contradicting what was said before. If your issue is sensitivity you would notice this in the fast corners, where aero matters more than in slow corners.Stella: in fast corners our car was not that bad. Our deficit was mainly in slow corners. And that part is extremly difficult to simulate with cfd and windtunnel.
Huh?Simon roberts: is confident all problems has been identified. It was a long process, not something that happened one day to the other.We could have introduced soultions to the current car but that would have added weight.
Again contradicting itself.That why the development was slow during the sec half of the year. Stella adds. Its not as if we lacked ideas.The concept just had its limitations and many of the changes would not have had an impact.
Now I'm just hoping that a lot of stuff is lost in translation, because this makes very little sense.
I particularly like the 'we could have' idea. Imagine a soccer team that is in last place in the league saying they're actually the best team in the league, as they 'could have scored more goals'. It's a child's way of saying he wasn't actually as good at it as he thought he was.
Out of all the articles that are posted I can only read one thing; They have no clue.
But I suppose we're going to see if they figured it out next year.
I think the contradiction is where Stella reportedly says the car's good in high speed corners but simultaneously says it looses downforce mid-way through the corners.trinidefender wrote: ↑13 Dec 2018, 01:10- They can turn up the wing angles without putting the wing into the stall region. As long as the wing operates out of the stall region then this will work through 2 ways:wesley123 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2018, 12:17So the solution to it's aero sensitivity was to turn up the wing angles, making them more sensitive?f1rules wrote: ↑12 Dec 2018, 11:05shared on autosport, nice article on amus wth qoutes from stella and morris
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... en-schief/
Amus: the mcl was not able to keep constant/stabile df through the whole corner. To counter that and get more stability they ran more wing which contributed to the lower top speeds
Considering how only McLaren and Williams have fallen back and everyone else has improved, we can make the assumption that everyone has gotten (more) to grips with it. After which you should ask yourself how teams with much less resources can get a grip on it but you can't.Amus: mclaren was not the only team having trouble keeping constant df. Stella explains its due to the wider cars, and says the biggest challenge of the aerodynamic team is to control front wheel wake since the frontwheels are now bigger hence producing more turbulence. This is even more critical due to the wider floor.
Is this so far behind compared to the top teams?Then he mentions they reached the borders of what can be simulated with cfd and windtunnel.
WTF?! That is completely contradicting what was said before. If your issue is sensitivity you would notice this in the fast corners, where aero matters more than in slow corners.Stella: in fast corners our car was not that bad. Our deficit was mainly in slow corners. And that part is extremly difficult to simulate with cfd and windtunnel.
Huh?Simon roberts: is confident all problems has been identified. It was a long process, not something that happened one day to the other.We could have introduced soultions to the current car but that would have added weight.
Again contradicting itself.That why the development was slow during the sec half of the year. Stella adds. Its not as if we lacked ideas.The concept just had its limitations and many of the changes would not have had an impact.
Now I'm just hoping that a lot of stuff is lost in translation, because this makes very little sense.
I particularly like the 'we could have' idea. Imagine a soccer team that is in last place in the league saying they're actually the best team in the league, as they 'could have scored more goals'. It's a child's way of saying he wasn't actually as good at it as he thought he was.
Out of all the articles that are posted I can only read one thing; They have no clue.
But I suppose we're going to see if they figured it out next year.
1) increases the percentage of rear downforce compared to the floor/diffuser therefore when you loose some downforce from the floor/diffuser the percentage of rear downforce lost is lower.
2) a stronger up wash created by a harder working rear wing can encourage more flow through the diffuser making it more stable overall.
- Slower corners are run at a different speed range putting the car at different ride heights (less rear squat at lower speed). Also, slower corners generally are tighter corners = larger steering angles and higher slip angles. It more points to there being an aero sensitivity issue under high levels of yaw.
Don't see much contradiction there at all actually.
I don’t think that is the krux of the problem. Im not ruling out that the suspension had some limitations but if the “major issue” they spotted was as clear-cut as it being caused exclusively by the fat rear suspension arm they would have just changed it. It would have required a fair bit of work (new gearbox casing, wheel hub adaptation and minor amendments to the rear bodywork) but nothing like the total overhaul that various team members have indicated it would have taken to rectify and totally possible to change mid-season.UlleGulle wrote: ↑13 Dec 2018, 12:35I'm only speculating here, but couldn't the high-rake / short wheelbase coupled with the aero-focused rear upper wishbone be the root of the problem.
According to the internet, which never lies, MCL33 has a wheelbase 3550 mm, which is equal to Red Bull. As I have understood it, the key to making a high rake to work without a drag penalty is using a soft rear suspension. That in it's turn requires a very well functioning suspension system, which the rear upper wishbone might not provide. In the early technical analysis of the car, some concerns were voiced over the rigidity of the wishbone.
This would explain the inconsistency, and why Mclaren haven't been able to fix it. Going for a low rake would require a a long wheelbase car, whilst changing the suspension would severly impact the flow over the diffusor.
As I said, just putting the theory out there.
1 Increasing wing angle will increase the sensitivity of the rear wing, but you have an issue with diffuser sensitivity it may help a bit.wesley123 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2018, 20:52The point is that increasing wing angles increases the sensitivity. It's weird to make it more sensitive when sensitivity is already a problem.(1)
My question comes from saying it added weight. Are they trying to make body parts out of tungsten?(2)Huh?
thats what it says, sounds reasonable to me, they needed time to get the puzzle together
It contradicts itself with the sentence above, where it was said that they could have introduced solutions. (3)Again contradicting itself.
development meaning ,not a lot of parts was brought to the actual race car im interpetating, because the concept/problem would mask the gains, this is not the same as no development going on
Stella implies that short corners i.e higher lateral angles affect the aero more than low lateral angles. The car was losing its peak downforce when the car had to turn a lot in simple terms.M840TR wrote: ↑13 Dec 2018, 13:36I think the contradiction is where Stella reportedly says the car's good in high speed corners but simultaneously says it looses downforce mid-way through the corners.trinidefender wrote: ↑13 Dec 2018, 01:10- They can turn up the wing angles without putting the wing into the stall region. As long as the wing operates out of the stall region then this will work through 2 ways:wesley123 wrote: ↑12 Dec 2018, 12:17
So the solution to it's aero sensitivity was to turn up the wing angles, making them more sensitive?
Considering how only McLaren and Williams have fallen back and everyone else has improved, we can make the assumption that everyone has gotten (more) to grips with it. After which you should ask yourself how teams with much less resources can get a grip on it but you can't.
Is this so far behind compared to the top teams?
WTF?! That is completely contradicting what was said before. If your issue is sensitivity you would notice this in the fast corners, where aero matters more than in slow corners.
Huh?
Again contradicting itself.
Now I'm just hoping that a lot of stuff is lost in translation, because this makes very little sense.
I particularly like the 'we could have' idea. Imagine a soccer team that is in last place in the league saying they're actually the best team in the league, as they 'could have scored more goals'. It's a child's way of saying he wasn't actually as good at it as he thought he was.
Out of all the articles that are posted I can only read one thing; They have no clue.
But I suppose we're going to see if they figured it out next year.
1) increases the percentage of rear downforce compared to the floor/diffuser therefore when you loose some downforce from the floor/diffuser the percentage of rear downforce lost is lower.
2) a stronger up wash created by a harder working rear wing can encourage more flow through the diffuser making it more stable overall.
- Slower corners are run at a different speed range putting the car at different ride heights (less rear squat at lower speed). Also, slower corners generally are tighter corners = larger steering angles and higher slip angles. It more points to there being an aero sensitivity issue under high levels of yaw.
Don't see much contradiction there at all actually.
You could be right, but I think the suspension is a key aerodynamic device on the MCL33. The other extreme-rake car, the RB14 has no undercut, and seems to rely on air clinging to the bodywork to reach the end of the diffusor. The MCL33 IMHO however seems to be built around a concept with the undercuts channeling air under the upper wishbone, thus aiding the diffusor.Jackles-UK wrote: ↑13 Dec 2018, 14:57I don’t think that is the krux of the problem. Im not ruling out that the suspension had some limitations but if the “major issue” they spotted was as clear-cut as it being caused exclusively by the fat rear suspension arm they would have just changed it. It would have required a fair bit of work (new gearbox casing, wheel hub adaptation and minor amendments to the rear bodywork) but nothing like the total overhaul that various team members have indicated it would have taken to rectify and totally possible to change mid-season.
Just to elaborate further on your point, the RB14 is focused on matching the sidewash and undercut air speed to extract more air from the diffuser when it passes over it, which is why it doesn't have an undercut as pronounced as the Mcl33.UlleGulle wrote: ↑14 Dec 2018, 12:38You could be right, but I think the suspension is a key aerodynamic device on the MCL33. The other extreme-rake car, the RB14 has no undercut, and seems to rely on air clinging to the bodywork to reach the end of the diffusor. The MCL33 IMHO however seems to be built around a concept with the undercuts channeling air under the upper wishbone, thus aiding the diffusor.Jackles-UK wrote: ↑13 Dec 2018, 14:57I don’t think that is the krux of the problem. Im not ruling out that the suspension had some limitations but if the “major issue” they spotted was as clear-cut as it being caused exclusively by the fat rear suspension arm they would have just changed it. It would have required a fair bit of work (new gearbox casing, wheel hub adaptation and minor amendments to the rear bodywork) but nothing like the total overhaul that various team members have indicated it would have taken to rectify and totally possible to change mid-season.
To change the rear suspension in order to get a better would bin this whole concept, which might cost more perfomance than the possible gains. In a position where you cannot trust your CFD or wind tunnel to give you good data, you'd need an Adrian Newey to pull it off.