Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[henry]

Didn't you dismiss the notion of multiple VSOC when debating me about when one can use 4MJ? Why the sudden change in opinion?

Can you remind me of the discussion? It’s quite likely that I might have disagreed with something you said because at the time I didn’t understand. My understanding of these power units is continually evolving, my knowledge of batteries and their management systems is limited. To be honest, given the limited amount of discussion on this forum, I don’t think I’m alone. So if you can point me at your “multiple VSOC” comments I’d be grateful, I’m sure it will advance my understanding.

You said the only SOC level was a 4MJ pool and that pool did not reset every lap. It was in the Ferrari power unit thread. I said there is a 4MJ limit from the ES to the MGU-K per lap, which resets on crossing the timing beam, and consists of one SOC. In addition to that, there is also the actual battery SOC which is independent of the SOC per lap.

Yes I recall that discussion. I’m afraid I don’t see any connection between the flow restriction, 4MJ ES to MGU-K and the state of charge.

The 4MJ SOC lasts for the duration of the race it is never reset, as far as I know. The proposal I have made is that because the ES is not 100% efficient the SOC that is measured drifts down through the physical SOC. The physical SOC is consumed to replace the energy that goes in but doesn’t come out.

I am happy for anyone to show my reasoning is faulty.

[godlameroso]

Can you remind me of the discussion? It’s quite likely that I might have disagreed with something you said because at the time I didn’t understand. My understanding of these power units is continually evolving, my knowledge of batteries and their management systems is limited. To be honest, given the limited amount of discussion on this forum, I don’t think I’m alone. So if you can point me at your “multiple VSOC” comments I’d be grateful, I’m sure it will advance my understanding.

You said the only SOC level was a 4MJ pool and that pool did not reset every lap. It was in the Ferrari power unit thread. I said there is a 4MJ limit from the ES to the MGU-K per lap, which resets on crossing the timing beam, and consists of one SOC. In addition to that, there is also the actual battery SOC which is independent of the SOC per lap.

Yes I recall that discussion. I’m afraid I don’t see any connection between the flow restriction, 4MJ ES to MGU-K and the state of charge.

The 4MJ SOC lasts for the duration of the race it is never reset, as far as I know. The proposal I have made is that because the ES is not 100% efficient the SOC that is measured drifts down through the physical SOC. The physical SOC is consumed to replace the energy that goes in but doesn’t come out.

I am happy for anyone to show my reasoning is faulty.

5.22 When the car is on the track a lap will be measured on each successive crossing of the timing
line



It is implied by the regulations that the amount of energy able to be sent to the MGU-K resets every lap. If you use 4MJ half way through the lap, you cannot deploy again from the ES for that lap, regardless of how much you put back in to the ES. However if the battery is depleted and you still have allowance in your 4MJ/lap pool, you again will not be able to deploy until the battery has enough charge.

The 4MJ/lap SOC(the virtual SOC) is not replenished by anything other than the timing light, only the physical ES SOC is replenished by the MGU-K(by 2MJ/lap) and the MGU-H, and exists independent of the virtual one. The virtual SOC as you say is limited to 4MJ any time the car is on track. The actual SOC of the ES is the actual energy available. This energy is consumed by both MGU-H and MGU-K and is replenished by both. The actual SOC of the ES is not subject to the 4MJ/lap rule because the ES also sends energy to the MGU-H which is unlimited by the regulations.

[henry]

You said the only SOC level was a 4MJ pool and that pool did not reset every lap. It was in the Ferrari power unit thread. I said there is a 4MJ limit from the ES to the MGU-K per lap, which resets on crossing the timing beam, and consists of one SOC. In addition to that, there is also the actual battery SOC which is independent of the SOC per lap.

Yes I recall that discussion. I’m afraid I don’t see any connection between the flow restriction, 4MJ ES to MGU-K and the state of charge.

The 4MJ SOC lasts for the duration of the race it is never reset, as far as I know. The proposal I have made is that because the ES is not 100% efficient the SOC that is measured drifts down through the physical SOC. The physical SOC is consumed to replace the energy that goes in but doesn’t come out.

I am happy for anyone to show my reasoning is faulty.

5.22 When the car is on the track a lap will be measured on each successive crossing of the timing
line

https://i.imgur.com/RbNhYwH.jpg

It is implied by the regulations that the amount of energy able to be sent to the MGU-K resets every lap. If you use 4MJ half way through the lap, you cannot deploy again from the ES for that lap, regardless of how much you put back in to the ES. However if the battery is depleted and you still have allowance in your 4MJ/lap pool, you again will not be able to deploy until the battery has enough charge.

The 4MJ/lap SOC(the virtual SOC) is not replenished by anything other than the timing light, only the physical ES SOC is replenished by the MGU-K(by 2MJ/lap) and the MGU-H, and exists independent of the virtual one. The virtual SOC as you say is limited to 4MJ any time the car is on track. The actual SOC of the ES is the actual energy available. This energy is consumed by both MGU-H and MGU-K and is replenished by both. The actual SOC of the ES is not subject to the 4MJ/lap rule because the ES also sends energy to the MGU-H which is unlimited by the regulations.

I don’t think we can discuss this further. Your terminology and understanding are so removed from my own that we will talk at crossed purposes forever.

You’re talking about energy flow paths and I’m trying to discuss the effects of ES efficiency.

Thanks but let’s just leave this here.

[subcritical71]

Henry, if I understand you correctly...

Assume energy flow from ES <> K only, ES charge eff = 95%, discharge eff = 90%, 4 MJ discharge per lap, 2 MJ charge per lap, ES Max SOC = 18 MJ and has a usable band between 4 and 18 MJ.

The efficiency loss at the battery during discharge (90%) would give a esSOC delta of 4.44 MJ to deliver 4 MJ at the battery sensor.

The efficiency loss at the battery during charging (95%) would give a esSOC delta of 1.9 MJ with 2 MJ delivered through the battery sensor.

So after 3 laps of discharge at 4 MJ and 6 laps of charging at 2 MJ the esSOC is actually lower than at the start by 1.93 MJ, even though the sensor has seen this as equal charge and discharge energy. A quick table to illustrate.

esSOC
Lap Start End
1 18.00 13.56 Discharging (-4.44 MJ esSOC / -4 MJ measSOC)
2 13.56 9.11 Discharging (-4.44 MJ esSOC / -4 MJ measSOC)
3 9.11 4.67 Discharging (-4.44 MJ esSOC / -4 MJ measSOC)
4 4.67 6.57 Charging (+1.9 MJ esSOC / +2 MJ measSOC)
5 6.57 8.47 Charging (+1.9 MJ esSOC / +2 MJ measSOC)
6 8.47 10.37 Charging (+1.9 MJ esSOC / +2 MJ measSOC)
7 10.37 12.27 Charging (+1.9 MJ esSOC / +2 MJ measSOC)
8 12.27 14.17 Charging (+1.9 MJ esSOC / +2 MJ measSOC)
9 14.17 16.07 Charging (+1.9 MJ esSOC / +2 MJ measSOC)
10 16.07 17.97 Charging (+1.9 MJ esSOC / +2 MJ measSOC)

With the efficiencies taken into account, in my example, you can deploy 4 MJ (measured) for three laps. To get the 12 MJ used back you actually need to charge for just above 7 laps at 2 MJ (measured).

Throw in the MGU-H 'unmetered' energy flow and it gets complicated real quick regarding maintaining the esSOC.

[henry]

Henry, if I understand you correctly...

Assume energy flow from ES <> K only, ES charge eff = 95%, discharge eff = 90%, 4 MJ discharge per lap, 2 MJ charge per lap, ES Max SOC = 18 MJ and has a usable band between 4 and 18 MJ.

The efficiency loss at the battery during discharge (90%) would give a esSOC delta of 4.44 MJ to deliver 4 MJ at the battery sensor.

The efficiency loss at the battery during charging (95%) would give a esSOC delta of 1.9 MJ with 2 MJ delivered through the battery sensor.

So after 3 laps of discharge at 4 MJ and 6 laps of charging at 2 MJ the esSOC is actually lower than at the start by 1.93 MJ, even though the sensor has seen this as equal charge and discharge energy. A quick table to illustrate.

esSOC
Lap Start End
1 18.00 13.56 Discharging (-4.44 MJ esSOC / -4 MJ measSOC)
2 13.56 9.11 Discharging (-4.44 MJ esSOC / -4 MJ measSOC)
3 9.11 4.67 Discharging (-4.44 MJ esSOC / -4 MJ measSOC)
4 4.67 6.57 Charging (+1.9 MJ esSOC / +2 MJ measSOC)
5 6.57 8.47 Charging (+1.9 MJ esSOC / +2 MJ measSOC)
6 8.47 10.37 Charging (+1.9 MJ esSOC / +2 MJ measSOC)
7 10.37 12.27 Charging (+1.9 MJ esSOC / +2 MJ measSOC)
8 12.27 14.17 Charging (+1.9 MJ esSOC / +2 MJ measSOC)
9 14.17 16.07 Charging (+1.9 MJ esSOC / +2 MJ measSOC)
10 16.07 17.97 Charging (+1.9 MJ esSOC / +2 MJ measSOC)

With the efficiencies taken into account, in my example, you can deploy 4 MJ (measured) for three laps. To get the 12 MJ used back you actually need to charge for just above 7 laps at 2 MJ (measured).

Throw in the MGU-H 'unmetered' energy flow and it gets complicated real quick regarding maintaining the esSOC.

Yes I think you have. A rather better explanation than I was managing.

I don’t know what the efficiencies are at these extreme charge and discharge rates but the numbers you use don’t look too fanciful.

My conclusions from this are :

that the capacity of the ES is important, the bigger it is the more it can make up for energy losses

Efficiency is important. It is possible that the teams can’t make up all the losses from ES charge and if so better efficiency would allow longer deployment than competitors.

Which is potentially what Ferrari have achieved using their twin battery approach.

[henry]

My basic numbers were that if an ES processed 200MJ during a race at 95% round trip efficiency the ES will need to supply 10MJ to maintain the 4MJ SOC. if we assume 90% efficiency then full maintenance is probably not possible.

[MarcJ]

Can you remind me of the discussion? It’s quite likely that I might have disagreed with something you said because at the time I didn’t understand. My understanding of these power units is continually evolving, my knowledge of batteries and their management systems is limited. To be honest, given the limited amount of discussion on this forum, I don’t think I’m alone. So if you can point me at your “multiple VSOC” comments I’d be grateful, I’m sure it will advance my understanding.

You said the only SOC level was a 4MJ pool and that pool did not reset every lap. It was in the Ferrari power unit thread. I said there is a 4MJ limit from the ES to the MGU-K per lap, which resets on crossing the timing beam, and consists of one SOC. In addition to that, there is also the actual battery SOC which is independent of the SOC per lap.

Yes I recall that discussion. I’m afraid I don’t see any connection between the flow restriction, 4MJ ES to MGU-K and the state of charge.

The 4MJ SOC lasts for the duration of the race it is never reset, as far as I know. The proposal I have made is that because the ES is not 100% efficient the SOC that is measured drifts down through the physical SOC. The physical SOC is consumed to replace the energy that goes in but doesn’t come out.

I am happy for anyone to show my reasoning is faulty.

ES SoC is kept in the 40-60% range as much as possible, that's where the lowest internal resistance is, it will not drift down, the current voltage maps over SoC near 30% very unimpressive, voltage drop is large, heat is higher.

Nano Nouvelle Nanode amorphous polymer graphene copper graphite anode current carrier that showed such great promise after cell manufacturers testing and orders for production then all fell apart and others are years behind. Damn made li-ion mass viable for motorcycles, not needing to over provision.

[MarcJ]

You said the only SOC level was a 4MJ pool and that pool did not reset every lap. It was in the Ferrari power unit thread. I said there is a 4MJ limit from the ES to the MGU-K per lap, which resets on crossing the timing beam, and consists of one SOC. In addition to that, there is also the actual battery SOC which is independent of the SOC per lap.

Yes I recall that discussion. I’m afraid I don’t see any connection between the flow restriction, 4MJ ES to MGU-K and the state of charge.

The 4MJ SOC lasts for the duration of the race it is never reset, as far as I know. The proposal I have made is that because the ES is not 100% efficient the SOC that is measured drifts down through the physical SOC. The physical SOC is consumed to replace the energy that goes in but doesn’t come out.

I am happy for anyone to show my reasoning is faulty.

5.22 When the car is on the track a lap will be measured on each successive crossing of the timing
line

https://i.imgur.com/RbNhYwH.jpg

It is implied by the regulations that the amount of energy able to be sent to the MGU-K resets every lap. If you use 4MJ half way through the lap, you cannot deploy again from the ES for that lap, regardless of how much you put back in to the ES. However if the battery is depleted and you still have allowance in your 4MJ/lap pool, you again will not be able to deploy until the battery has enough charge.

The 4MJ/lap SOC(the virtual SOC) is not replenished by anything other than the timing light, only the physical ES SOC is replenished by the MGU-K(by 2MJ/lap) and the MGU-H, and exists independent of the virtual one. The virtual SOC as you say is limited to 4MJ any time the car is on track. The actual SOC of the ES is the actual energy available. This energy is consumed by both MGU-H and MGU-K and is replenished by both. The actual SOC of the ES is not subject to the 4MJ/lap rule because the ES also sends energy to the MGU-H which is unlimited by the regulations.

That lap measurement rule doesn't say anything about energy SoC.

[godlameroso]

Yes I recall that discussion. I’m afraid I don’t see any connection between the flow restriction, 4MJ ES to MGU-K and the state of charge.

The 4MJ SOC lasts for the duration of the race it is never reset, as far as I know. The proposal I have made is that because the ES is not 100% efficient the SOC that is measured drifts down through the physical SOC. The physical SOC is consumed to replace the energy that goes in but doesn’t come out.

I am happy for anyone to show my reasoning is faulty.

5.22 When the car is on the track a lap will be measured on each successive crossing of the timing
line

https://i.imgur.com/RbNhYwH.jpg

It is implied by the regulations that the amount of energy able to be sent to the MGU-K resets every lap. If you use 4MJ half way through the lap, you cannot deploy again from the ES for that lap, regardless of how much you put back in to the ES. However if the battery is depleted and you still have allowance in your 4MJ/lap pool, you again will not be able to deploy until the battery has enough charge.

The 4MJ/lap SOC(the virtual SOC) is not replenished by anything other than the timing light, only the physical ES SOC is replenished by the MGU-K(by 2MJ/lap) and the MGU-H, and exists independent of the virtual one. The virtual SOC as you say is limited to 4MJ any time the car is on track. The actual SOC of the ES is the actual energy available. This energy is consumed by both MGU-H and MGU-K and is replenished by both. The actual SOC of the ES is not subject to the 4MJ/lap rule because the ES also sends energy to the MGU-H which is unlimited by the regulations.

That lap measurement rule doesn't say anything about energy SoC.

Meaning?

[godlameroso]

You said the only SOC level was a 4MJ pool and that pool did not reset every lap. It was in the Ferrari power unit thread. I said there is a 4MJ limit from the ES to the MGU-K per lap, which resets on crossing the timing beam, and consists of one SOC. In addition to that, there is also the actual battery SOC which is independent of the SOC per lap.

Yes I recall that discussion. I’m afraid I don’t see any connection between the flow restriction, 4MJ ES to MGU-K and the state of charge.

The 4MJ SOC lasts for the duration of the race it is never reset, as far as I know. The proposal I have made is that because the ES is not 100% efficient the SOC that is measured drifts down through the physical SOC. The physical SOC is consumed to replace the energy that goes in but doesn’t come out.

I am happy for anyone to show my reasoning is faulty.

ES SoC is kept in the 40-60% range as much as possible, that's where the lowest internal resistance is, it will not drift down, the current voltage maps over SoC near 30% very unimpressive, voltage drop is large, heat is higher.

Nano Nouvelle Nanode amorphous polymer graphene copper graphite anode current carrier that showed such great promise after cell manufacturers testing and orders for production then all fell apart and others are years behind. Damn made li-ion mass viable for motorcycles, not needing to over provision.

Low voltage relative to the 1KV limit or just in general?

[Brake Horse Power]

5.22 When the car is on the track a lap will be measured on each successive crossing of the timing
line

https://i.imgur.com/RbNhYwH.jpg

It is implied by the regulations that the amount of energy able to be sent to the MGU-K resets every lap. If you use 4MJ half way through the lap, you cannot deploy again from the ES for that lap, regardless of how much you put back in to the ES. However if the battery is depleted and you still have allowance in your 4MJ/lap pool, you again will not be able to deploy until the battery has enough charge.

The 4MJ/lap SOC(the virtual SOC) is not replenished by anything other than the timing light, only the physical ES SOC is replenished by the MGU-K(by 2MJ/lap) and the MGU-H, and exists independent of the virtual one. The virtual SOC as you say is limited to 4MJ any time the car is on track. The actual SOC of the ES is the actual energy available. This energy is consumed by both MGU-H and MGU-K and is replenished by both. The actual SOC of the ES is not subject to the 4MJ/lap rule because the ES also sends energy to the MGU-H which is unlimited by the regulations.

That lap measurement rule doesn't say anything about energy SoC.

Meaning?

Meaning you can deploy 4MJ for 5 upfollowing laps if you like. You will only need to charge for over 10 laps from MGU-K, and install a big enough battery, or find the limits of the battery for max charging / discharging. Imagine the benefits you can have after for example safety car situation. You have all the time in the world to fully charge all systems..

[henry]

That lap measurement rule doesn't say anything about energy SoC.

Meaning?

Meaning you can deploy 4MJ for 5 upfollowing laps if you like. You will only need to charge for over 10 laps from MGU-K, and install a big enough battery, or find the limits of the battery for max charging / discharging. Imagine the benefits you can have after for example safety car situation. You have all the time in the world to fully charge all systems..

I don’t think that’s how it works. The SOC can not vary more than 4MJ. My supposition is that they measure it by summing energy in and out of the ES. So you can’t just consume more of the physical contents of the ES without it being noticed. My suggestion is that the rules may allow the use of the additional physical charge to make up for losses.

[Nonserviam85]

Yes I recall that discussion. I’m afraid I don’t see any connection between the flow restriction, 4MJ ES to MGU-K and the state of charge.

The 4MJ SOC lasts for the duration of the race it is never reset, as far as I know. The proposal I have made is that because the ES is not 100% efficient the SOC that is measured drifts down through the physical SOC. The physical SOC is consumed to replace the energy that goes in but doesn’t come out.

I am happy for anyone to show my reasoning is faulty.

ES SoC is kept in the 40-60% range as much as possible, that's where the lowest internal resistance is, it will not drift down, the current voltage maps over SoC near 30% very unimpressive, voltage drop is large, heat is higher.

Nano Nouvelle Nanode amorphous polymer graphene copper graphite anode current carrier that showed such great promise after cell manufacturers testing and orders for production then all fell apart and others are years behind. Damn made li-ion mass viable for motorcycles, not needing to over provision.

Low voltage relative to the 1KV limit or just in general?

For Li-Ion battery the Voltage can go down to 600-650V with a 20-30% SOC. To compensate for same Power Delivery Current output gets significantly higher with increased heating/cooling requirements.

[godlameroso]

Most electric road cars operare ~450 volts. I honestly though they were a long way away from the 1KV limit.

[Nonserviam85]

Most electric road cars operare ~450 volts. I honestly though they were a long way away from the 1KV limit.

True, but in road cars you don't need to care (at least that much) for space and cooling requirements compared to F1. So if the rules allow up to 1kV in F1 you will always try to be as close to this limit to reduce currents i.e in order to reduce cooling and weight due to reduced cabling cross sections requirements. Electrical insulation is not very onerous at this voltage levels compared to cooling/cable sizing.