General Honda F1 Topic

[Zynerji]

One thing about a new spec being released is actual mapping. I believe this is the area Honda is behind due to late in the game and did not have a stable concept until now.

It makes sense when a new spec is available to run it on TR and figure out the mapping before install in RBR to be competitive right away. It does not always have to be about reliability.

It was already mentioned the relationship between ICE and MGU-H on different track needs to have different balance to maximize the efficiency of the PU. My hope is that with Red Bull's experience and Data on different track, they can assist in balancing this and help with Mapping. I remember TR has tech at Honda to help mapping in 2018.

I don't think that Red Bull will be as helpful as you think when it comes to the mapping aspect of Tunning the PU...at best they will help Honda in identifying and modifying certain parameters at various tracks due to different characteristics on said tracks...Plain and Simple Honda design and map their Power Unit..You can't expect much from Aero experts when it comes to engine tunning and if that where the case Red Bull would have designed and manufactured their own engine a long long time ago...This is not you average Honda engine that you modify and tune at the Speed Shop but a state of the art piece of machinery and assuming that some random engineer from Red Bull will help map it is quite ludicrous actually...

Wasn't it well-known that Red Bull did their own developments on the Renault engine in the V8 era?

[Wazari]

[
I don't think that Red Bull will be as helpful as you think when it comes to the mapping aspect of Tunning the PU...at best they will help Honda in identifying and modifying certain parameters at various tracks due to different characteristics on said tracks...Plain and Simple Honda design and map their Power Unit..You can't expect much from Aero experts when it comes to engine tunning and if that where the case Red Bull would have designed and manufactured their own engine a long long time ago...This is not you average Honda engine that you modify and tune at the Speed Shop but a state of the art piece of machinery and assuming that some random engineer from Red Bull will help map it is quite ludicrous actually...

Not exactly. Each team has an integration staff whose function is to maximize the PU's capabilities and characteristics with the chassis. This is where a "works" team has a tremendous advantage. Mapping is an art with these highly sophisticated PU's. The more input you can receive from the chassis side including the drivers, the more it helps us with the race to race "fine tuning" of the PU which a large part is the mapping/software side. These are not random engineers but people who are skilled at translating track data to useful information to the PU engineers. For a company like Red Bull it would be over a billion Euro investment to put the infrastructure in place to build their PU. IMO, the ROI on such an investment would not be a prudent business decision. In my experience thus far, this hybrid works-partnership with Red Bull has been as close to a true works team as I have ever seen. In a way I feel sorry for true customer teams in this area.

[lio007]

[
I don't think that Red Bull will be as helpful as you think when it comes to the mapping aspect of Tunning the PU...at best they will help Honda in identifying and modifying certain parameters at various tracks due to different characteristics on said tracks...Plain and Simple Honda design and map their Power Unit..You can't expect much from Aero experts when it comes to engine tunning and if that where the case Red Bull would have designed and manufactured their own engine a long long time ago...This is not you average Honda engine that you modify and tune at the Speed Shop but a state of the art piece of machinery and assuming that some random engineer from Red Bull will help map it is quite ludicrous actually...

Not exactly. Each team has an integration staff whose function is to maximize the PU's capabilities and characteristics with the chassis. This is where a "works" team has a tremendous advantage. Mapping is an art with these highly sophisticated PU's. The more input you can receive from the chassis side including the drivers, the more it helps us with the race to race "fine tuning" of the PU which a large part is the mapping/software side. These are not random engineers but people who are skilled at translating track data to useful information to the PU engineers. For a company like Red Bull it would be over a billion Euro investment to put the infrastructure in place to build their PU. IMO, the ROI on such an investment would not be a prudent business decision. In my experience thus far, this hybrid works-partnership with Red Bull has been as close to a true works team as I have ever seen. In a way I feel sorry for true customer teams in this area.

I'm very pleased with your post. Especially with the bolded part. Sounds like there is a healthy, work-in-partnership environment between the two parties. And my interpretation of your post is, that this has never been the case at McLaren or at least not to that extent.

[Alexf1]

In the motorsport.com article the Honda boss said that they had made a big step over the winter. If this is the same big step as spec 2 -> 3 the are closing the gap to the big 2 very fast! Wonder hoe many tenths the gap to the big 2 will still be in Barcelona laptime. Compared to last year qualifyings Red Bull need a quantum leap. Any calculated guess what to expect there 2018 -> 2019?

[mzso]

yes it is possible if the want that 1 driver has (for example) the 3.x version and the oher driver has a 3.y version.

It was already mentioned the relationship between ICE and MGU-H on different track needs to have different balance to maximize the efficiency of the PU. My hope is that with Red Bull's experience and Data on different track, they can assist in balancing this and help with Mapping. I remember TR has tech at Honda to help mapping in 2018.

It sounds like they could also design two different specification PUs for different track characteristics. Which is more easily done with 4-5 new PU deployments.

[mzso]

I agree with what you said. The red bull experience, I should clarify when I said Mapping but it means specific track character on the balance of ice/mgu-h/deployment. Do they expect to be out front and defend the position or do they expect to have to fight from positions back. If they have the grip to accelerate out of corner or do they want more deployment down the straight.

Actual on track testing probably would be the biggest help the way I see it, not just mapping wise.

[mzso]

In the motorsport.com article the Honda boss said that they had made a big step over the winter. If this is the same big step as spec 2 -> 3 the are closing the gap to the big 2 very fast! Wonder hoe many tenths the gap to the big 2 will still be in Barcelona laptime. Compared to last year qualifyings Red Bull need a quantum leap. Any calculated guess what to expect there 2018 -> 2019?

There were also news (rumors) about Mercedes gaining 12 horsepowers, so they're not standing still either.

[Capharol]

In the motorsport.com article the Honda boss said that they had made a big step over the winter. If this is the same big step as spec 2 -> 3 the are closing the gap to the big 2 very fast! Wonder hoe many tenths the gap to the big 2 will still be in Barcelona laptime. Compared to last year qualifyings Red Bull need a quantum leap. Any calculated guess what to expect there 2018 -> 2019?

There were also news (rumors) about Mercedes gaining 12 horsepowers, so they're not standing still either.

True, but they are reaching a point where they won't gain as much as Honda or Renault because they have reached the limit of what an engine is able to give within the regulations

[Zynerji]

In the motorsport.com article the Honda boss said that they had made a big step over the winter. If this is the same big step as spec 2 -> 3 the are closing the gap to the big 2 very fast! Wonder hoe many tenths the gap to the big 2 will still be in Barcelona laptime. Compared to last year qualifyings Red Bull need a quantum leap. Any calculated guess what to expect there 2018 -> 2019?

There were also news (rumors) about Mercedes gaining 12 horsepowers, so they're not standing still either.

True, but they are reaching a point where they won't gain as much as Honda or Renault because they have reached the limit of what an engine is able to give within the regulations

Or they find new rule bending that passes inspection.

[Capharol]

There were also news (rumors) about Mercedes gaining 12 horsepowers, so they're not standing still either.

True, but they are reaching a point where they won't gain as much as Honda or Renault because they have reached the limit of what an engine is able to give within the regulations

Or they find new rule bending that passes inspection.

which others will find aswell and use it, it's just a question of who find the leaphole first and gain an advantage by it.
it's always the same with technic....
who's gonna find the leaphole first, benefits till others find it to or even better ones

2010-2014 RB had the upper hand, then the today's engine came, Mercedes did a better job till last year as Ferrari closed that gap and even was a bit better for a few races.
Now its up to Honda to close that gap and if it's true that they found something better (sorry forgott what it was exactly, believe it was combustion or someting like that) and jump Merc and Ferrari maybe 2020 can get a dominant year for Honda... but that's all guessing

[etusch]

If these news are true we are going to see a very good season as 3 team will fight for the title

Already HRD Sakura has almost completed RA 619 H, and it is said that it exerts a considerably high performance. In addition to securing reliability, there is also information that the output is further extended from spec 3. It is said that the remarks such as "closer to 2 strongly", "targeting the title" and so on from Red Bull side are not simply optimism but received data from Honda.

https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/smart/c ... /index.php

https://forums.autosport.com/topic/2099 ... try8626899

[LM10]

In the motorsport.com article the Honda boss said that they had made a big step over the winter. If this is the same big step as spec 2 -> 3 the are closing the gap to the big 2 very fast! Wonder hoe many tenths the gap to the big 2 will still be in Barcelona laptime. Compared to last year qualifyings Red Bull need a quantum leap. Any calculated guess what to expect there 2018 -> 2019?

There were also news (rumors) about Mercedes gaining 12 horsepowers, so they're not standing still either.

True, but they are reaching a point where they won't gain as much as Honda or Renault because they have reached the limit of what an engine is able to give within the regulations

I don’t really think there’s a limit. It’s just a question of innovation. The best engineers in the world push each other 24/7. This is how you achieve new heights.

[Capharol]

There were also news (rumors) about Mercedes gaining 12 horsepowers, so they're not standing still either.

True, but they are reaching a point where they won't gain as much as Honda or Renault because they have reached the limit of what an engine is able to give within the regulations

I don’t really think there’s a limit. It’s just a question of innovation. The best engineers in the world push each other 24/7. This is how you achieve new heights.

as long as there are rules, there is always a limit

[Wouter]

If these news are true we are going to see a very good season as 3 team will fight for the title

https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/smart/c ... /index.php

Thank you for this article @etusch.

[etusch]

If these news are true we are going to see a very good season as 3 team will fight for the title

https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/smart/c ... /index.php

Thank you for this article @etusch.

You're welcome