General Honda F1 Topic

[restless]

I think in best case scénario, RB will be in 2019 at the same level than if they have kept the Renault

In the best case scénario?
Did you miss that the Honda engine was already faster than the Renault engine at the end of last season?
They have now made a lot of progress again. Not only with the ICE but also with the electrical part.
How can RB in the best case scénario be at the same level than with a Renault engine. That is very illogical imo.

Anyway, we are going to see how great the Renault engine has become during the winter, for the very first time.

don't say hop before you jump

[zack!]

[
You can't expect them to have in 2019 an engine with both same reliability, power and fuel economy than Ferrari or Mercedes.
]
Tanabe said they still have efficiency issue (read fuel overconsumption = wight penailty, or fuel saving mode) , and RB said 5 victories granted 5 PU a year.

I think Renault will probably be better than that, 3 PU a year and better fuel consumption and better power and better driveability.

I think renault C version was quite good at low revs, with a particularly torquy an linear ice at that range, even compare to mercedes. For some circuits, with traction of RB14 it was a very good package (by the way they beat ferrari and mercedes some times !).

So for me, it is quite unlikely Honda will be the thir PU this year. May be, but not the more logical.

[GhostF1]

[
You can't expect them to have in 2019 an engine with both same reliability, power and fuel economy than Ferrari or Mercedes.
]
Tanabe said they still have efficiency issue (read fuel overconsumption = wight penailty, or fuel saving mode) , and RB said 5 victories granted 5 PU a year.

I think Renault will probably be better than that, 3 PU a year and better fuel consumption and better power and better driveability.

I think renault C version was quite good at low revs, with a particularly torquy an linear ice at that range, even compare to mercedes. For some circuits, with traction of RB14 it was a very good package (by the way they beat ferrari and mercedes some times !).

So for me, it is quite unlikely Honda will be the thir PU this year. May be, but not the more logical.

That is a compete misconception. If you are referring to the very end of the season where Red Bull seemed to be quite strong even power wise, namely Mexico, you have to consider a couple things.

- That unit was a brand new unit from Renault and it was actually a Spec B because Renault could not guarantee the Spec C would even function correctly at altitude. Combine this with the fact both Merc and Ferrari were on their last engine for the year and they were very nearly at the end of their lives. So it seems only natural a fresh Renault engine would have a smaller gap to tired Merc/Fez units.
- The Spec C indeed had more power, even Max and Christian were quoted saying it did, however Max constantly criticised it's power delivery, finding it acting inappropriate under braking and difficult on throttle. Comparatively, Max stated that the Honda drives in a totally different manner to the Renault so he had to readjust, but driveability was excellent and the unit felt punchier.

[Jambier]

We also need to remember that RB used the wrong fuel and MGU K last year.

Going to Honda is the right choice of course: Factory team, free engines, lot of investment from Honda, and big progress.
So I think from 2020 they will see the benefits (One year experience, better intégration)

But I'm just worried about their communication, I don't want them to put to much pression on Honda like McLaren was.

Honda in 2018 was:

- Big progress
- But still bad fuel consumption
- Use 8 engine a year
- Still 20hp down on Renault - Except in qualy mode -

This winter everyone have progressed, Renault as well with better reliability and 40hp more.

Then that's why I say if Honda 2019 = Renault 2019, this is the best case scenario and it means huge progress:

- It means 60hp win over the winter
- It means going from 8 to 4 engine a year
- And it means better fuel consumption

All of that in one winter. Almost to good to be true.
So thinking they are now close to Mercedes of Ferrari, it's just dreaming. In 2020, I think they can, but in 2019 RB should better be patient and not put extra pressure on Honda

[Stef]

Don't forget a bunch of those replaced engines were perfectly healthy

[GhostF1]

We also need to remember that RB used the wrong fuel and MGU K last year.

Going to Honda is the right choice of course: Factory team, free engines, lot of investment from Honda, and big progress.
So I think from 2020 they will see the benefits (One year experience, better intégration)

But I'm just worried about their communication, I don't want them to put to much pression on Honda like McLaren was.

Honda in 2018 was:

- Big progress
- But still bad fuel consumption
- Use 8 engine a year
- Still 20hp down on Renault - Except in qualy mode -

This winter everyone have progressed, Renault as well with better reliability and 40hp more.

Then that's why I say if Honda 2019 = Renault 2019, this is the best case scenario and it means huge progress:

- It means 60hp win over the winter
- It means going from 8 to 4 engine a year
- And it means better fuel consumption

All of that in one winter. Almost to good to be true.
So thinking they are now close to Mercedes of Ferrari, it's just dreaming. In 2020, I think they can, but in 2019 RB should better be patient and not put extra pressure on Honda

Where has this "Honda were behind Renault power wise with bad consumption" nonsense come from?
This hasn't been stated by any actual source. 2018 Toro Rosso never once mentioned bouts of fuel saving... So not sure how that has been mentioned. And power... How have we come to this conclusion? Christian Horner, in Canada where Honda debuted Spec 2, said that both the Renault Spec B and Honda Spec 2 were within 1% of each other in race trim... That is the only fact uttered we could believe.

Bring on Russia. Honda debuts Spec 3. Initial teething problems yes re: vibrations however it was widely reported Honda had found a Huge amount of performance. Much bigger than the jump from 1-2. And it was then pretty much believed they were clearly ahead of Renault. Logic would also lead to this conclusion..

So I can't understand how we have this Renault were ahead, or Honda have bad fuel consumption nonsense. It's baseless and keeps being paraded as fact.

[Wouter]

We also need to remember that RB used the wrong fuel and MGU K last year.

Going to Honda is the right choice of course: Factory team, free engines, lot of investment from Honda, and big progress.
So I think from 2020 they will see the benefits (One year experience, better intégration)

But I'm just worried about their communication, I don't want them to put to much pression on Honda like McLaren was.

Honda in 2018 was:

- Big progress
- But still bad fuel consumption
- Use 8 engine a year
- Still 20hp down on Renault - Except in qualy mode -

This winter everyone have progressed, Renault as well with better reliability and 40hp more.

Then that's why I say if Honda 2019 = Renault 2019, this is the best case scenario and it means huge progress:

- It means 60hp win over the winter
- It means going from 8 to 4 engine a year
- And it means better fuel consumption

All of that in one winter. Almost to good to be true.
So thinking they are now close to Mercedes of Ferrari, it's just dreaming. In 2020, I think they can, but in 2019 RB should better be patient and not put extra pressure on Honda

.

Where has this "Honda were behind Renault power wise with bad consumption" nonsense come from?

These nonsens comes from @ Jambier. Over and over again, so often that he has come to believe in it himself!

He doesn't do anything else but to post wrong and bad information about Honda.

[yener]

Last year in Mexico, RBR concluded from GPS data, that the Honda engine would gain them 0.6 seconds a lap

Offcourse both Honda and Renault made progress this winter, but i would like to remind that this is renaults first year off their ( new ) engine concept.

But everything will be clear in a couple days. I believe in the worst scenario, Honda has equal power to the Renault engine.

[Jambier]

So you all believe Red Bull communication then.
We can take things on the other side:

- Renault said that Honda 2018 was still at the end of year 20kw down compared to Renault.
- Renault said that they were 50hp down on qualy and 15-20kw down in race compared to top Mercedes/Ferrari.

- Paddock said that RB was disappointed when Honda put a special mode for Canada to conclude a deal, then goes a big way down on power.
- RB was not using same fuel as Renault

Then there was this GPS analysis:
Mercedes peak power = Ferrari = 1030 hp in qualy and 980 hp (race - average)
Renault 990 hp and 950 race.
Honda 950 hp and 930 race

There was also Amus analysis saying that Renault was 20Hp in front of Honda.


Conclusion is: You can't trust RB communication. We don't know how Honda and Renault 2019 engine compare, and I think we will not really know it even during the 2019 season.
But believing that Honda is now ahead of Renault with a large margin is just dreaming.

[Wouter]

- Renault said that Honda 2018 was still at the end of year 20kw down compared to Renault.
- Renault said that they were 50hp down on qualy and 15-20kw down in race compared to top Mercedes/Ferrari.

Now I get it !! You still believe in fairy tales !!
Abiteblabla likes to tell fairy tales. Never noticed?

Then there was this GPS analysis:
Mercedes peak power = Ferrari = 1030 hp in qualy and 980 hp (race - average)
Renault 990 hp and 950 race.
Honda 950 hp and 930 race

False information again!

Ferrari 790 HP (ICE)
Merc 780 HP
Honda 760 HP
Renault 740 HP

There was also Amus analysis saying that Renault was 20Hp in front of Honda.

That was after the Renault C spec and before Honda introduced the spec 3.0 and 3.1 ! An upgrade of more than 40 HP.

[JordanMugen]

Conclusion is: You can't trust RB communication.

Why would Horner lie when he said Honda is worth 0.6s over Renault on SkyTV? How pointless would that be?

[Jambier]

Conclusion is: You can't trust RB communication.

Why would Horner lie when he said Honda is worth 0.6s over Renault on SkyTV? How pointless would that be?

Didn't you notice the "communication war" between Red Bull and Renault ?
And even now, separated from Renault, they keep talking about them or trying to say to the world how bad Renault was

Isn't that pointless ? My point from the beginning is that their communication is silly and risk to hurt Honda as well.

But if their communication is true: They have the best chassis, they have the best driver (Max), and now they have the almost best engine.
So, there will be no excuse if they are not world champion this year. Let's wait December then

[Capharol]

oh boy @jambier, i have read you posts now for several days, but now i can't help myself by reacting on your last posts, because they are so false, that even Trump would be ashamed.
1) if i could i would downvote all your posting from te last few days, because you just don't listen or being open for other opinions (which are more correct then all you posts together)
2) i guess we all know WHY you are speaking so bad about RB and Honda...... you are from France..... this alone says enough, to clarify for other, French = Renault = hates other opinions (stubborn ppl)
3) somehow i believe Horner, Marko, and Honda more, then your words (maybe because they are clear BS)
4) they don't plan to be champion this year ...... they planning this year as a learning process, yes they wanna win races (Monaco, Mexico, etc.), but above all they wanna know how far they can go (enginewise) do they need 5 engine to get through this season, yes very possible because they wanna go for the championship in 2020 (the last year they can make Verstappen the youngest WC)

so I have 1, yes only 1 request for you..... stop writing here or show any source that support your thesis, if you can't, stop this BS as long as you don't have any real facts

[Wouter]

oh boy @jambier, i have read you posts now for several days, but now i can't help myself by reacting on your last posts, because they are so false, that even Trump would be ashamed.
............

I totaly agree with you! He doesn't listen or being open for other opinions .

[SmallSoldier]

oh boy @jambier, i have read you posts now for several days, but now i can't help myself by reacting on your last posts, because they are so false, that even Trump would be ashamed.
1) if i could i would downvote all your posting from te last few days, because you just don't listen or being open for other opinions (which are more correct then all you posts together)
2) i guess we all know WHY you are speaking so bad about RB and Honda...... you are from France..... this alone says enough, to clarify for other, French = Renault = hates other opinions (stubborn ppl)
3) somehow i believe Horner, Marko, and Honda more, then your words (maybe because they are clear BS)
4) they don't plan to be champion this year ...... they planning this year as a learning process, yes they wanna win races (Monaco, Mexico, etc.), but above all they wanna know how far they can go (enginewise) do they need 5 engine to get through this season, yes very possible because they wanna go for the championship in 2020 (the last year they can make Verstappen the youngest WC)

so I have 1, yes only 1 request for you..... stop writing here or show any source that support your thesis, if you can't, stop this BS as long as you don't have any real facts

1) How can you qualify an “opinion” as correct or incorrect? The data used could be, but an opinion is just that, an opinion and even when you may disagree with it, you can’t say his incorrect.

2) That has to be one of the most ignorant comments I’ve read on this site... Because his French, his opinion is BS? French = Hates others opinions (Stubborn)? Shame on you for such an idiotic comment. You can disagree with his points of view but such a generalization disqualifies you from any argument.

3) That’s on you who do you believe... And just as he is entitled to his opinion, you are entitled to believe on anyone.

4) That’s not entirely true... RBR wants to be Champions, further if you “believe” in everything Horner, Marko say (as you pointed out), then you should realize that they are looking for the championship... Marko says that they will win 5 races this year (which means winning 25% of the races in the Championship), they say that the Honda engine is better than Renault in power, reliability, etc... Therefore, if they were fighting Mercedes and Ferrari on ocassion in 2018, they should be fighting if not for wins, at least for podiums... They have said (almost to exhaustion) that they have the best chassis / car on the grid and that they have the best driver on the grid (Max)... Therefore, it they don’t win the Championship this season, it really should be a failure