2019 Renault F1 Team

[Phil]

So you are suggesting anyone who is not happy should just 'suck it up' and keep quiet, rather than voicing what they feel and thus creating pressure so that perhaps the regulator (FIA/Liberty) make adjustments to the benefit of the sport as a whole? What Renault are effectively saying; If this continues and despite their huge investments into their own team isn't enough to compete with teams with a blanc-check and multiple B-teams, that they will be out?

Even if you are a fan of one of these big teams (e.g. Mercedes or Ferrari), do you really think this is good for the sport? Do we want those teams to be as strong as they are because they are using lower teams who no longer can defend themselves and are only operating at the cost of survival?

[Sieper]

Renault is a factory team, complaining about the one remaining privateer team that is competetive, If anything the other real Privateers (McLaren and Williams) should receive a fairer part of the pie.

[Big Tea]

So you are suggesting anyone who is not happy should just 'suck it up' and keep quiet, rather than voicing what they feel and thus creating pressure so that perhaps the regulator (FIA/Liberty) make adjustments to the benefit of the sport as a whole? What Renault are effectively saying; If this continues and despite their huge investments into their own team isn't enough to compete with teams with a blanc-check and multiple B-teams, that they will be out?

Even if you are a fan of one of these big teams (e.g. Mercedes or Ferrari), do you really think this is good for the sport? Do we want those teams to be as strong as they are because they are using lower teams who no longer can defend themselves and are only operating at the cost of survival?

If the other teams are operating within the rules, yes.
Which is not to say he/they are not entitled to make his feelings felt.

Alternately, were it not for these 'b' teams, the grid would be very small, and Renault had plenty of opportunity of taking on one of the fails and adding a team to the grid.

I know he is going to bleat, as do all the other teams when things are not going their way, but thats how it it. No one wants to see two or three teams dropped from F1, which is what the possible consequences would be to re -writing the rule that allows it.

[dren]

So you are suggesting anyone who is not happy should just 'suck it up' and keep quiet, rather than voicing what they feel and thus creating pressure so that perhaps the regulator (FIA/Liberty) make adjustments to the benefit of the sport as a whole? What Renault are effectively saying; If this continues and despite their huge investments into their own team isn't enough to compete with teams with a blanc-check and multiple B-teams, that they will be out?

Even if you are a fan of one of these big teams (e.g. Mercedes or Ferrari), do you really think this is good for the sport? Do we want those teams to be as strong as they are because they are using lower teams who no longer can defend themselves and are only operating at the cost of survival?

Renault is posturing for regulation changes for the benefit of Renault, not the sport. More shared parts benefits the sport as a whole as it brings performance closer between teams and makes entry cheaper a la the Haas model.

[Phil]

No one is complaining about the "players" doing what the rules allow them to. Neither is Renault. Renault is blaming "the game" and that is something the regulator can/might correct if they see the merit behind it.

I just think that instead of pointing fingers at Renault for whinging and crying, one should take some time to reflect on what they are really complaining about and if the argument behind it has merits or not. E.g. not only think as far as their failings this year but take into account where this "trend" is heading and with what kind of sport we will be left with if it continues.

If you remember, even Mercedes was raising concerns to the level of cooperation between Haas and Ferrari not too long ago (pre 2017 I think). The only difference between them and Renault is that Mercedes already has struggling partners (Williams and Racing Point) so effectively is one-leg ahead of Renault in building their own junior teams. For Renault it's not that easy; Their only customer is probably as big and more experienced then themselves (sans PU division)!

[KiLLu12258]

So you are suggesting anyone who is not happy should just 'suck it up' and keep quiet, rather than voicing what they feel and thus creating pressure so that perhaps the regulator (FIA/Liberty) make adjustments to the benefit of the sport as a whole? What Renault are effectively saying; If this continues and despite their huge investments into their own team isn't enough to compete with teams with a blanc-check and multiple B-teams, that they will be out?

Even if you are a fan of one of these big teams (e.g. Mercedes or Ferrari), do you really think this is good for the sport? Do we want those teams to be as strong as they are because they are using lower teams who no longer can defend themselves and are only operating at the cost of survival?

Renault is posturing for regulation changes for the benefit of Renault, not the sport. More shared parts benefits the sport as a whole as it brings performance closer between teams and makes entry cheaper a la the Haas model.

But this isnt F1 at all. Yeah, for haas its the only way to be in the f1, im fine with it. But it should be limited, if every teams using the same parts this isnt f1 anymore. The Technical side of this sport is also very important. (for me and hopefully most of you here, otherwise a technical forum lost its sense.)

[dren]

So you are suggesting anyone who is not happy should just 'suck it up' and keep quiet, rather than voicing what they feel and thus creating pressure so that perhaps the regulator (FIA/Liberty) make adjustments to the benefit of the sport as a whole? What Renault are effectively saying; If this continues and despite their huge investments into their own team isn't enough to compete with teams with a blanc-check and multiple B-teams, that they will be out?

Even if you are a fan of one of these big teams (e.g. Mercedes or Ferrari), do you really think this is good for the sport? Do we want those teams to be as strong as they are because they are using lower teams who no longer can defend themselves and are only operating at the cost of survival?

Renault is posturing for regulation changes for the benefit of Renault, not the sport. More shared parts benefits the sport as a whole as it brings performance closer between teams and makes entry cheaper a la the Haas model.

But this isnt F1 at all. Yeah, for haas its the only way to be in the f1, im fine with it. But it should be limited, if every teams using the same parts this isnt f1 anymore. The Technical side of this sport is also very important. (for me and hopefully most of you here, otherwise a technical forum lost its sense.)

Sure it is. You used to be able to buy cars and run them as separate teams. The technical regulations are open enough that you will have plenty of variety although they are much tighter than in the past. Every team doesn't use the same parts. There is still variation between the top teams which Ferrari and Red Bull share with other teams.

[Big Tea]

No one is complaining about the "players" doing what the rules allow them to. Neither is Renault. Renault is blaming "the game" and that is something the regulator can/might correct if they see the merit behind it.

I just think that instead of pointing fingers at Renault for whinging and crying, one should take some time to reflect on what they are really complaining about and if the argument behind it has merits or not. E.g. not only think as far as their failings this year but take into account where this "trend" is heading and with what kind of sport we will be left with if it continues.

If you remember, even Mercedes was raising concerns to the level of cooperation between Haas and Ferrari not too long ago (pre 2017 I think). The only difference between them and Renault is that Mercedes already has struggling partners (Williams and Racing Point) so effectively is one-leg ahead of Renault in building their own junior teams. For Renault it's not that easy; Their only customer is probably as big and more experienced then themselves (sans PU division)!

Part of me agrees with what you say. I would like to see a return (?) to one team one car, but then has it ever been so?

One time it was possible to buy a car from a team and enter it as a private, and I seem to remember the racing being at least as good then. Even to the point of having to use pre-qualifying to keep the numbers sensible.

Every team buys in some parts, and the line has to be drawn somewhere. If it was ruled that every part had to be made in house, I doubt any team would be capable, even at really stupid spend rates. What about engines? Same thing, you build your own or take from someone else.

I think it is about right as it is, but appreciate not everyone is happy.

[Phil]

I think the intent of a certain rule in place and to what degree it could/can be exploited to be two different things.

I.e. the rule that part sharing is allowed is not there to give big teams the advantage of using a junior team to spread their resources and find an advantage; it's there to allow smaller teams a cheaper entry into the sport.

That's why, rules and regulations get updated/changed. It was never the intent that big teams can use the existing rules to circumvent certain limits by using junior teams. It happened and given the rules, it's allowed for now, but if the trend continues, maybe it no longer will be.

Disclaimer; I'm not shouting foulplay here. I'm just stating that given the rules & regulations, not every way of how it can be exploited is good for the sport. And yes, I am well aware that Renault is only looking after themselves here; All I'm saying is that their complaint has merit as far as where the sport as a whole is concerned.

[Big Tea]

I think the intent of a certain rule in place and to what degree it could/can be exploited to be two different things.

I.e. the rule that part sharing is allowed is not there to give big teams the advantage of using a junior team to spread their resources and find an advantage; it's there to allow smaller teams a cheaper entry into the sport.

That's why, rules and regulations get updated/changed. It was never the intent that big teams can use the existing rules to circumvent certain limits by using junior teams. It happened and given the rules, it's allowed for now, but if the trend continues, maybe it no longer will be.

Disclaimer; I'm not shouting foulplay here. I'm just stating that given the rules & regulations, not every way of how it can be exploited is good for the sport. And yes, I am well aware that Renault is only looking after themselves here; All I'm saying is that their complaint as merit as far as where the sport as a whole is concerned.

I quite agree with you, especially your 'disclaimer', but then is that not what Renault, those who are complaining, are themselves doing? They are supplying engines, (without which other teams could not race,) and by doing so are assisting the cost of developing and building their own, also getting development information from several sources.

Edit, I seem to be just arguing for arguments sake here. Apologize. I retire

[PowerandtheGlory]

I think the issue is not really HAAS - but team that are genuinely servant teams to the bigger teams, we have TR and ALFA now this year. TR have come out and said they would sacrifice for RB if it helped them. This to me isn't very sporting. Never mind the Supply side, the business, the money, the politics... Teams have had customers in one form or another for years, its nothing new. The HAAS model isn't that new, but they have pushed the envelope to the maximum by taking all the parts they could from Ferrari. But its the other teams which exist to supply data to the big teams. Last year driving for TR was a joke as every race weekend Honda would swop out parts and cause grid penalties as they basically did In-season engine development at the cost of TR having any sort of campaign. Like Ive posted elsewhere on this; if you had Man Utd Loan players to Burnley so the young player gets developed and Burnley benefit from having a better player join, there's no issue in that idea. But if Man Utd suddenly controlled Burnley and Made Burnley a Man Utd B team and when they played in the same league they said can you sacrifice for us, let us Win 5-0 because we're in a title fight with Chelsea or whoever, it would be ludicrous. So i don't believe that a B team should be a test unit for another team and the Data from engines and car components once provided cannot travel back the other way. What happens now where the servant team move out of the way for the main teams when a Lead driver is recovering is Advantage enough, that should be the limit of the support they give.. Otherwise we'll have to keep track of who supplies what to who, so in the race who lets so and so through because you supply us gearboxes and whatever... and people wonder why some bits of F1 have gone wrong over the years..!!

[Ground Effect]

So you are suggesting anyone who is not happy should just 'suck it up' and keep quiet, rather than voicing what they feel and thus creating pressure so that perhaps the regulator (FIA/Liberty) make adjustments to the benefit of the sport as a whole? What Renault are effectively saying; If this continues and despite their huge investments into their own team isn't enough to compete with teams with a blanc-check and multiple B-teams, that they will be out?

Even if you are a fan of one of these big teams (e.g. Mercedes or Ferrari), do you really think this is good for the sport? Do we want those teams to be as strong as they are because they are using lower teams who no longer can defend themselves and are only operating at the cost of survival?

Renault is posturing for regulation changes for the benefit of Renault, not the sport. More shared parts benefits the sport as a whole as it brings performance closer between teams and makes entry cheaper a la the Haas model.

But unfortunately, it doesn't bring the midfield closer to the front. I'm not saying it's the midfield teams fault, because this is the only way they can survive or at least be competitive in today's F1. I think the system is broken when a Porsche or BMW, VW say F1 is too expensive and irrelevant to come on board. When a Toyota leaves and doesn't look back. This is supposed to be the pinnacle of Motorsport, with all the glamour and technology. But it isn't attractive to new comers. The B team definitely has it's benefits, but also it makes F1 stagnant. It's hard enough for a customer team to win a race, so what is the best a B team can aspire to in F1.
I always felt that the part sharing was a very good idea for new entrants. But I'd prefer it if such arrangements were for a fixed period of time. After say 3 or 4 years the team should be able to produce these parts or source from and independent supplier, not a team competing as well.

[Jolle]

So you are suggesting anyone who is not happy should just 'suck it up' and keep quiet, rather than voicing what they feel and thus creating pressure so that perhaps the regulator (FIA/Liberty) make adjustments to the benefit of the sport as a whole? What Renault are effectively saying; If this continues and despite their huge investments into their own team isn't enough to compete with teams with a blanc-check and multiple B-teams, that they will be out?

Even if you are a fan of one of these big teams (e.g. Mercedes or Ferrari), do you really think this is good for the sport? Do we want those teams to be as strong as they are because they are using lower teams who no longer can defend themselves and are only operating at the cost of survival?

Renault is posturing for regulation changes for the benefit of Renault, not the sport. More shared parts benefits the sport as a whole as it brings performance closer between teams and makes entry cheaper a la the Haas model.

But unfortunately, it doesn't bring the midfield closer to the front. I'm not saying it's the midfield teams fault, because this is the only way they can survive or at least be competitive in today's F1. I think the system is broken when a Porsche or BMW, VW say F1 is too expensive and irrelevant to come on board. When a Toyota leaves and doesn't look back. This is supposed to be the pinnacle of Motorsport, with all the glamour and technology. But it isn't attractive to new comers. The B team definitely has it's benefits, but also it makes F1 stagnant. It's hard enough for a customer team to win a race, so what is the best a B team can aspire to in F1.
I always felt that the part sharing was a very good idea for new entrants. But I'd prefer it if such arrangements were for a fixed period of time. After say 3 or 4 years the team should be able to produce these parts or source from and independent supplier, not a team competing as well.

It looks like Renault wants to be victim and saviour of F1 at the same time. What are the junior/B-teams? Toro Rosso is the obvious one and half of Alfa? Especially Toro Rosso has been crucial to give talent a place to grow into F1. Where is Renault's talent?

Renault would earn a bit more respect if they develop their own strengths instead of trying to moan about a team like HAAS who are just very handy in buying the right parts and outsourcing the rest to Dalara.

of course the FIA and Liberty are in communications with Volkswagen, Toyota, BMW, Ford, GM and Hyundai if and how they would be interested in F1.

[Jambier]

Think it's time to think about their budget

This season will be a pure nightmare, so what should they do now?

[Capharol]

as i said Abiteboul trying to shift the focus from they're problems to others
so Cyril stop whining and crying about other, just get your **** together, and start focussing on your team instead of others