2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

[Quantum]

I think it’s a sign of low downforce. Perhaps Honda hasn’t quite caught up yet so they have to run a lighter trim to keep up on straights, but it’s hurting them when cornering.

If they cut wing, they cut even more wing relative to 2018, with a more powerful engine this year?

I posted the 2018 speed and they were down by a larger percentage. This year they are level pegging with Mercedes and Ferrari and sometimes even beating them on the straights.
So why would you cut your wing in 2019, to go faster on the straight, but increase your overall laptime?

That makes no sense at all.

[!Technical]

Hope Max can finish in the top 5 tomorrow. Last year the workhorse in the back of the car always failed, ruling out the chance of crucial constructors points. Points on the board are even more important this year. RBR will be challenged by Haas and Renault all year long.

[godlameroso]

Its not just .3 it has to be .3 better than Mercedes can manage. In other words Mercedes has to be outdeveloped. Optimising the setup and balance can maybe find another tenth or two, but Mercedes can do the same. They need to put more performance on the car.

[godlameroso]

Hope Max can finish in the top 5 tomorrow. Last year the workhorse in the back of the car always failed, ruling out the chance of crucial constructors points. Points on the board are even more important this year. RBR will be challenged by Haas and Renault all year long.

Seriously doubt that. Red Bull will just out develop both Haas and Renault. Red Bull has much more money and talent to throw at the car. Unlike Renault, they can focus their resources on the chassis instead of splitting them up between car and power unit.

[PhillipM]

Before everyone gets carried away, this isn't too much different to last seasons first qualifying.
Repeat after me - "Melbourne is not a representative circuit" and "One data point doesn't make a trend"

tbfh needs to be across every thread in here atm

[RB19]

Its not just .3 it has to be .3 better than Mercedes can manage. In other words Mercedes has to be outdeveloped. Optimising the setup and balance can maybe find another tenth or two, but Mercedes can do the same. They need to put more performance on the car.

Yes and it seems Adrian Newey is not so hot these days. You come to expect a 0.6 advantage just by having him in the building.

[Quantum]

Before everyone gets carried away, this isn't too much different to last seasons first qualifying.
Repeat after me - "Melbourne is not a representative circuit" and "One data point doesn't make a trend"

tbfh needs to be across every thread in here atm

If the above is true, then the previous 20 seasons melbourne data should not correlate with the who won the championship, and who was competitive throughout the season.
Only, there is a correlation and it is definitely not tenuous.

[ispano6]

Vettel won the race and not the championship. So you're saying if you qualify fastest in Melbourne you win the championship? The season has way too many factors to say that the result of the first race determines the outcome of the championship.

[etusch]

I don't know what brought us in this discussion. Is it our expection for pole from Redbull or gap to pole sitter?
During winter testing, everyone talked about 0.5 sec gap to Ferrari. But now there is not. this time 0.8 to merc. Same as Ferrari. I expect from Redbull doing better and better race by race and they could be very strong in second part of season by their in season development ability helped by Honda update.
If they competitve first few race and get best possible points to home it is ok.

[SmallSoldier]

I think you should take into account that they have a new pu supplier and new aero rules they still a lot to learn

Not disagreeing... I’m just stating that as expected, Marko was overhyping the car... Comments such as “the best car we have ever made”, didn’t help... But it’s way too soon and I’m sure that they will develop the car quickly, will they close the gap to Mercedes, Ferrari? Not so sure about it...

Probably the biggest takeaway is that from a top speed perspective, it seems that the PU’s are finally converging and that’s great news.


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[SmallSoldier]

Aside from the gaffe the team made with Gasly, I think Red Bull shouldn't be too discouraged. Mixing it with the Ferrari drivers in the first race with the new engine is an accomplishment in itself.

Granted, they are significantly behind Mercedes, but I think that reality reflects more negatively on Ferrari than Red Bull.

Well, they were closer to Mercedes last year (0.7 seconds instead of 0.9 seconds)... And closer to Ferrari too, since they were both in the same tenth and now they are 0.2 seconds from them... If anything, they are going backwards and the gap year on year has increased by 0.2 seconds to both teams (and that’s with the super duper China upgrade)


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Compared to both Mercedes and Ferrari, Red Bull have had to make far more significant changes this year.

• Integrating a new power unit.

• From above, making alterations to the rest of the drive train, chassis, bodywork, everything in other words, to incorporate the Honda PU.

• Adapting to the new aerodynamic rules.

• Integrating a new driver.

Mercedes have only had to adapt to the new rules.

Ferrari have a new driver, who most would consider an upgrade on the old one (no offense to Kimi), otherwise its just the rule changes for them as well.

Getting on the second row is a positive outcome, and if they are fighting for the podium tomorrow that would be an excellent start for the season.

The one piece missing in your analysis is that they are stating that their current PU is better than the previous one, not only in terms of power, but also in terms of packaging... therefore the expectation was that they would close the gap they had to Ferrari and Mercedes and the reality is that teams like Haas, Renault and Mclaren are closer to them than they are to the top 2


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[HPD]

We are not having an easy weekend. We still have many problems.
But all the "team" work hard. Congratulations

[Capharol]

Well, they were closer to Mercedes last year (0.7 seconds instead of 0.9 seconds)... And closer to Ferrari too, since they were both in the same tenth and now they are 0.2 seconds from them... If anything, they are going backwards and the gap year on year has increased by 0.2 seconds to both teams (and that’s with the super duper China upgrade)


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Compared to both Mercedes and Ferrari, Red Bull have had to make far more significant changes this year.

• Integrating a new power unit.

• From above, making alterations to the rest of the drive train, chassis, bodywork, everything in other words, to incorporate the Honda PU.

• Adapting to the new aerodynamic rules.

• Integrating a new driver.

Mercedes have only had to adapt to the new rules.

Ferrari have a new driver, who most would consider an upgrade on the old one (no offense to Kimi), otherwise its just the rule changes for them as well.

Getting on the second row is a positive outcome, and if they are fighting for the podium tomorrow that would be an excellent start for the season.

The one piece missing in your analysis is that they are stating that their current PU is better than the previous one, not only in terms of power, but also in terms of packaging... therefore the expectation was that they would close the gap they had to Ferrari and Mercedes and the reality is that teams like Haas, Renault and Mclaren are closer to them than they are to the top 2


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And they are better then Renault, Verstappen P4, Renault P11 and P12

[Fulcrum]

Well, they were closer to Mercedes last year (0.7 seconds instead of 0.9 seconds)... And closer to Ferrari too, since they were both in the same tenth and now they are 0.2 seconds from them... If anything, they are going backwards and the gap year on year has increased by 0.2 seconds to both teams (and that’s with the super duper China upgrade)


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Compared to both Mercedes and Ferrari, Red Bull have had to make far more significant changes this year.

• Integrating a new power unit.

• From above, making alterations to the rest of the drive train, chassis, bodywork, everything in other words, to incorporate the Honda PU.

• Adapting to the new aerodynamic rules.

• Integrating a new driver.

Mercedes have only had to adapt to the new rules.

Ferrari have a new driver, who most would consider an upgrade on the old one (no offense to Kimi), otherwise its just the rule changes for them as well.

Getting on the second row is a positive outcome, and if they are fighting for the podium tomorrow that would be an excellent start for the season.

The one piece missing in your analysis is that they are stating that their current PU is better than the previous one, not only in terms of power, but also in terms of packaging... therefore the expectation was that they would close the gap they had to Ferrari and Mercedes and the reality is that teams like Haas, Renault and Mclaren are closer to them than they are to the top 2


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The gap in your logic is that you are forgetting that neither Mercedes or Ferrari are static targets.

The Honda PU could indeed be better than last year's Renault, and the packaging could be better than last year too, but if Ferrari and Mercedes have improved by larger margins, they fall back.

I have no reason to doubt what Marko and Horner are saying; wait, I take that back. I don't believe a word out of their mouths as a general rule.

Marko and Horner are likely saying all the right things to the media to show solidarity with Honda. This is how you build a relationship. This is a rather alien concept, considering the way they dumped on Renault all the time, but that was at the back end of a 10 year relationship, this is the beginning of a new one.

That said, there is no data suggesting the Honda is worse than last year's engine. Today's result isn't a definitive vote of confidence for the engine, but there is certainly no empirical evidence that it is worse either.

All told, it is largely a situation of status quo, at least in qualifying. As I've already stated, that is an absolute success considering the amount of change initiated by the new engine supply.

Let's revisit this after the race.

[Capharol]

Better let's revisit after 3 races then the picture is much clearer