Drivers not happy with Hamilton's on-track behaviour

[mcdenife]

At Spa, Lewis could easily have braked a little more after the corner and make the chicane, instead of moving off the track.

I take it you have not seen the previously unseen footage from LH's onboard then?

[Steven]

In Spa Hamilton was half a car in front of Kimi yet Kimi still came across the track - and it's pure speculation on your part that he could have easily braked a little harder.

Not after the turn-in. Anyway, the Spa incident wasn't really about cutting the chicane, but rather about how he recovered. I doesn't really matter in this thread

The only at all dodgy move that Hamilton made in Monza was the one on Glock, and it looked pretty clear to me in the replays that he simply did not know he was there. Again it could be argued that he was ahead, had the racing line, and Glock should have yielded. That is after all what you believe Lewis should have done in Spa.

Glock was still aside at that time, he's not going to drive into the grass at 200km/h if he has another choice. Anyway, any F1 driver with more than 3 races of experience knows when someone is close, even without mirrors. If you pass someone, they're not suddenly 5 seconds behind you.

[myurr]

In Spa Hamilton was half a car in front of Kimi yet Kimi still came across the track - and it's pure speculation on your part that he could have easily braked a little harder.

Not after the turn-in. Anyway, the Spa incident wasn't really about cutting the chicane, but rather about how he recovered. I doesn't really matter in this thread

I disagree as it's an example of a similar situation where in both instances people are accusing Lewis of being in the wrong. I'm trying to point out that people can't have it both ways - if Lewis was in the wrong in Monza then so was Kimi in Spa. I prefer to take the view that neither were in the wrong.

The only at all dodgy move that Hamilton made in Monza was the one on Glock, and it looked pretty clear to me in the replays that he simply did not know he was there. Again it could be argued that he was ahead, had the racing line, and Glock should have yielded. That is after all what you believe Lewis should have done in Spa.

Glock was still aside at that time, he's not going to drive into the grass at 200km/h if he has another choice. Anyway, any F1 driver with more than 3 races of experience knows when someone is close, even without mirrors. If you pass someone, they're not suddenly 5 seconds behind you.

We've seen numerous drivers get caught out, it's not just Lewis. I honestly believe that Lewis felt he'd had good traction out of the corner and was surprised that Glock had kept up, let alone was starting to pull alongside (he was still less than half way alongside, and not level).

So maybe we can decide here once and for all - do drivers that are in front and are on the inside have the right to stick to their line effectively blocking an overtake by driving people off the circuit - especially in a slow, continuous move? We've seen drivers from all teams, the beloved red cars included, doing this. If it's okay then Lewis has done nothing wrong, if it's not okay then Lewis is far from alone.

[Belatti]

I'm with the drivers here, and frankly I think that if you think otherwise, you're pretty biased.

Fair enough - but I think otherwise and feel that you are biased.

That´s the kind of discussion that only gets solved in a bar, with two beers

[andartop]

it is a bit like the coulthard situation, it's never his fault but he can't help getting himself involved into accidents this year..almost every race, isn't it?
on the other hand, this "bullish" behaviour i think is one of the characteristics a champion needs to have. sadly for lewis, it is not the only one characteristic a champion needs to have.

[Conceptual]

I didn't see anyone mention Alonso's move on Heidfeld last year. I cannot remember what track it was, but it was a very fasy right hand sweeper, and Alonso slammed the door on Heidfeld, and forced him off the track to avoid a colision.

I also rememeber Heidfeld afterwards saying that there was nothing wrong with the move. It was very aggressive, but passing is so difficult, that you sometimes have to pull off manouvers such as that to simply get into the corner first. I believe he also likened it to outbraking someone into a corner.

You are forcing someone to back off or wreck into you. While some people call it a "pig f*ck*r" move, others call it "brilliant".

Point of views are the only difference between those types of people, and the only thing that they have in common is their bigotry. That in turn makes any related argument irrational, and irrational acts should be avoided at all costs.

[shir0]

I share woohoo's view... i think the drivers are the best judge, and their collective standards form what is acceptable on track.

Point of views are the only difference between those types of people, and the only thing that they have in common is their bigotry. That in turn makes any related argument irrational, and irrational acts should be avoided at all costs.

rriiiight...so if the drivers are the best judge of what's acceptable (or not) on track and that their "collective" standards is what's acceptable, and the only common thing about drivers in general (as Conceptual pointed out) is their bigotry, then we are not watching a race every grand prix weekend but just a clash of personalities and what matters,in the end,is the most common opinion (or common intolerance) between the drivers...

hmmm...sounds like politics back in my homeland...

Where lewis has to be careful is that sooner or later (and its looking like sooner) the drivers will start reacting to his style. Particularly the drivers lower down in the order will be more aggressive when he next approaches them to overtake, and they'll feel less and less about taking him out of the race. his conduct on track will only serve in their defense if he lodges a compliant about it after

Why not just make their case with the FIA and have him stripped of his super license? It's a whole lot safer (and cheaper). It's not like the end of Formula One if Lewis gets the boot. There are younger drivers in line behind him...not alluding that they will match Lewis' skills though.

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I've been a lurker around here for all of three months now and what I've noticed is that things get heated when we're talking about the reds and the silvers, Kimi and Lewis. Our opinions would not matter a bit to them so long as people watch the sport.

Let's just let them be... We're all fans of F1 here and we should be happy enough watching it all from the side lines. All these just makes the sport more exciting since you don't need to wait for a race to have drama in the sport.

[myurr]

Totally agree Conceptual.

In my mind there is nothing wrong with the driver that has the racing line maintaining whatever position they see fit, as long as they don't make a violent move designed to hit another car. Anything which is progressive and predictable should be considered pure racing. It's up to the car that does not have track position to either find a way past or to defend. To expect more would stunt what is left of on track overtaking moves.

I'd even like to see a new penalty introduced to replace the drive through given to clumsy overtaking moves. Sure they're bad, but these cars are so difficult to pass with that it's inevitable that sometimes drivers will get it wrong. As the most recent example I can think of there's Heikki's move on Webber in Spa where he rather clumsily punted it up the inside knocking Webber into a spin.

He had to serve a drive through for that which effectively took him completely out of the race. There should be a lesser penalty - maybe a place just off the circuit where it's safe for a driver to go, come to a complete stop, before moving on again. Penalising them maybe 5 - 10 seconds rather than 20 - 30 for a drive through (or worse 50+ seconds if they have to change their nose cone as well with a second run through the pits).

I should clarify though that I don't want to encourage clumsy overtaking - just have another slightly less severe penalty that can be given out more consistently.

[Conceptual]

I share woohoo's view... i think the drivers are the best judge, and their collective standards form what is acceptable on track.

Point of views are the only difference between those types of people, and the only thing that they have in common is their bigotry. That in turn makes any related argument irrational, and irrational acts should be avoided at all costs.

rriiiight...so if the drivers are the best judge of what's acceptable (or not) on track and that their "collective" standards is what's acceptable, and the only common thing about drivers in general (as Conceptual pointed out) is their bigotry, then we are not watching a race every grand prix weekend but just a clash of personalities and what matters,in the end,is the most common opinion (or common intolerance) between the drivers...

hmmm...sounds like politics back in my homeland...

Where lewis has to be careful is that sooner or later (and its looking like sooner) the drivers will start reacting to his style. Particularly the drivers lower down in the order will be more aggressive when he next approaches them to overtake, and they'll feel less and less about taking him out of the race. his conduct on track will only serve in their defense if he lodges a compliant about it after

Why not just make their case with the FIA and have him stripped of his super license? It's a whole lot safer (and cheaper). It's not like the end of Formula One if Lewis gets the boot. There are younger drivers in line behind him...not alluding that they will match Lewis' skills though.

-----

I've been a lurker around here for all of three months now and what I've noticed is that things get heated when we're talking about the reds and the silvers, Kimi and Lewis. Our opinions would not matter a bit to them so long as people watch the sport.

Let's just let them be... We're all fans of F1 here and we should be happy enough watching it all from the side lines. All these just makes the sport more exciting since you don't need to wait for a race to have drama in the sport.

Actually, I was referring to message board arguments about the drivers actions. I did not infer that the drivers are the bigots, just the fans that refuse to acknowledge different points of view as equally valid.

[The FOZ]

I find this a bit b******, hamiltons action were complete fair and i dont saw the problems with it. That he blocked glock was a bit unfair yes, but the action on webber is complete b*******, if you looked good you saw that hamilton gave him enough space, more then massa did or raikkonen last week. As you could see, webber lost his balance on braking and then hit hamilton.
I also dont know why alonso has to start saying things about things he didnt even see, i dont know what hamilton did wrong at alonso. Since alonso left he always has to complain something about hamilton, i guess it is just that alonso is jaleous of hamiltons no1 position. I havent seen hamilton making an unfair move (except on glock) in his f1 career so i dont know what they are complaining about.

You're right, what do the other drivers know? They've gotta deal with the guy on a regular basis. Us fans clearly are in a better position to judge, what with our 2-dimensional televisions and restrictive camera angles.

[shir0]

Actually, I was referring to message board arguments about the drivers actions. I did not infer that the drivers are the bigots, just the fans that refuse to acknowledge different points of view as equally valid.

Even so, based on what the drivers' inconsistent opinions/standards they adhere to (with regards to racing maneuvers), it amounts to the same thing with the drivers.

Also, this points out that we can opine all we want here but we should not expect people (especially "fans") to readily accept opinions of others ( especially "rival fans" or "fans of rivals"). There will always be people who are born with their own opinions and cannot part with them without dying in the process.

Let's all just watch races shall we? Or talk about technical stuff since this is a technical forum, or is it still?

[timbo]

In my opinion, one can count how many "incidents" was Hamilton involved this year, and it can be clearly seen that he doesn't give a sh*t about what he and others do on track - Bahrain, Canada, France, Germany, Belgium, Italy. That's like half of the races he's in there's something happening between him and some other driver.

Of cource every single "incident" may be viewed as accidental but when you sum them all there's definetely a trend (just like in DC's case).

[Michiba]

what are the chances that one of the drivers he pissed off will do a schumacher (a la adelaide) on him just to stop him from winning the wdc?

[timbo]

what are the chances that one of the drivers he pissed off will do a schumacher (a la adelaide) on him just to stop him from winning the wdc?

I think they are all professionals and nobody would do this on purpose. However by getting involved in this type of accidents Hamilton increases a chance that something goes wrong. It is already went wrong for him in Bahrein, when he lost time changing his wing.

[shir0]

well...speaking of opinions about the matter, I did a frame-sequence video clip of both overtaking moves (Kimi/Lewis Spa '08 & Webber/Lewis Monza '08). Its frame by frame so we can easily see things. This had helped me form MY-OWN-HUMBLE-TAKE-ON-THINGS on these incidents.

Oh, and yes, in both cases I deliberately put Lewis' name AFTER Kimi and Webber because, IMH-OPINION, that's how Lewis compares to both drivers right now...

...Hamilton first went to the right of the track, trying to defend his inside line, as he says. Unfortunately for him, Webber was clearly faster and could come aside on the outside.
Hamilton then quickly decided he was going to lose a place, so moved back to the outside, instead of keeping his line. We have seen such moves before, and it's ok as long as you leave your competitor room...


I agree with Tomba here..

The International Sporting Code of 2008 states:
"During a race, a car alone on the track may use the full width of
the said track. However, as soon as it is caught up on a straight
by a car which is either temporarily or constantly faster, the driver
shall give the other vehicle the right of way by pulling over to one
side in order to allow for passing on the other side."

If the blind Hamilton fans don't belive me, check out APPENDIX L TO THE INTERNATIONAL SPORTING CODE, Chapter IV, Article 1 (Overtaking), Section "a)".

...now check out this video...
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDDiXZ_KT6g[/youtube]

Maybe now he will appreciate why Lewis had to take to the escape road in Spa.

At Spa, Lewis could easily have braked a little more after the corner and make the chicane, instead of moving off the track...


I agree with Tomba here, too. Raikkonnen was pulling away right after the first apex of the chicane. Lewis was no longer SIDE-BY-SIDE with Kimi after the turn-in. Lewis no longer held the speed advantage at that point which legally gives the right to Kimi to hold on to the racing line.

..check out this video...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nN4heMtDCRQ[/youtube]

...both videos and MY-OWN-HUMBLE-TAKE-ON-THINGS are in here