2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

[RonDennis]

According to Carlos he was a DNF anyway due to a suspect gearbox.

If I were a McLaren fan I'd be worrying about my own teams troubled engine and gearbox making it to the end in China.

Maybe Mansour Ojjeh will end up sacking Zak Brown now that James Key has arrived. Or just keep him around for marketing officer.

I don't get what you have against Zak Brown. He isn't an engineer, he says this openly. He is a business man with many commercial connections and additionally is/was an amateur racer and car enthusiast.

Zak was brought in to:
1. Raise funds for a team that commercially wasn't earning as much through sponsorship compared to what it used to (at least compared to other teams).
2. Put the right people in place to get the job done.

What metric would you like to use to try to prove the point that he hasn't done either?

He has and is seeming to use his many commercial connections to bring in sponsorship money.

His recent hires of high profile engineers bodes well for the future of the technical department.

Which saw Ron Dennis unceremoniously ousted from McLaren and Honda contract ended, loss of face and free PUs, all for what? One temporary year of mediocrity with Renault right when Honda engine was becoming good? It took dumping Honda to realize how pretty she could be and how overweight yourself has become. Ron Dennis had a 10year plan with Honda that could have bore fruit but knee jerk reactions and some pretty rude cultural comments and disrespectfulness ended a vision of a man who led McLaren through good times and bad. Need I say more?

Are you even aware that all these problems were caused by Ron Dennis? He was the one that appointed Whitmarsh, he was the one that ruined the relationship with Mercedes, mismanaged Alonso/Hamilton, spygate, loss of sponsors, flat management structure, should I continue? McLaren was a complete mess and saying goodbye to Honda was the best thing they've done, because they would have continued playing the blame game without any changes.

[dp12]

...

Sure but that's why I said little flavor difference but the story is the same. Next time they will provide the fixes to Renault works team and not McLaren then what?

Feeling bullish for McLaren although I try to maintain my optimism about the car and not get too excited. As they did well last year at the opening stages (although not this good). Norris is the real deal and either Renault need to get on top of its reliability/parts availability/power in a good balance, or it will be frustrating for McLaren as it did for RBR. I really hope they can bring in another manufacture (or 2) in 2021 and McLaren can get back to works team.

TOYOTA would be Amazing. Especially with the connection of Fernando Alonso

[Ground Effect]

Nope, Norris was behind both Renaults at that point and Ric lost pace when he had his front wing squashed by Hulk.

Yes it is a good sign. But I said we had to fight for it, nothing said changes that. We are not outright ahead in midfield, if at all. We were on a track that likes us and forgave setbacks.

Of course Norris was behind both Renault’s, he was 15th by the end of lap 1... The fact that he was able to get behind both Renault’s (and at some point in within 2 seconds of Hulk) tells a very flattering story for both Norris and Mclaren... He did pass RIC after their collision, but watching the data on F1TV, Ric’s pace wasn’t hindered as much as one would think.

I don’t think that the team is at the front of midfield, I genuinely believe that the team are in the mix with Renault and that Haas is probably still ahead of the rest and just had an off day in Bahrain.

But I’m actually optimistic for China, if the car is running less downforce than the rest of the teams and still manages to be on the hunt, then that’s a good sign... It was said here that a new rear wing is on the works, who knows, we may see it in Testing tomorrow or Wednesday.


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He kept up with Hulk, remember Hulk started some way back due to poor Qualy. Ric had a poor strategy and that is why he came through behind Hulk, not because Mclaren were much faster. We simply weren't beating Renault on pace by much at all. Hulk started 17th and would have finished ahead of Lando had his engine not gone.

I'm not dissing Mclaren, it's a very good car, but Hulks achievement bettered Lando in a car that is supposedly slower. We were probably a bit faster, but not by a margin that lets me think we are leaders, just cos we did well on a track that might just suit the car.

Remember Lando was caught out at the start, while Hulk had an amazing start. Lando was always chasing Hulk after going off and dropping to 15th. But I'd say their pace was pretty similar.

[mwillems]

Of course Norris was behind both Renault’s, he was 15th by the end of lap 1... The fact that he was able to get behind both Renault’s (and at some point in within 2 seconds of Hulk) tells a very flattering story for both Norris and Mclaren... He did pass RIC after their collision, but watching the data on F1TV, Ric’s pace wasn’t hindered as much as one would think.

I don’t think that the team is at the front of midfield, I genuinely believe that the team are in the mix with Renault and that Haas is probably still ahead of the rest and just had an off day in Bahrain.

But I’m actually optimistic for China, if the car is running less downforce than the rest of the teams and still manages to be on the hunt, then that’s a good sign... It was said here that a new rear wing is on the works, who knows, we may see it in Testing tomorrow or Wednesday.


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He kept up with Hulk, remember Hulk started some way back due to poor Qualy. Ric had a poor strategy and that is why he came through behind Hulk, not because Mclaren were much faster. We simply weren't beating Renault on pace by much at all. Hulk started 17th and would have finished ahead of Lando had his engine not gone.

I'm not dissing Mclaren, it's a very good car, but Hulks achievement bettered Lando in a car that is supposedly slower. We were probably a bit faster, but not by a margin that lets me think we are leaders, just cos we did well on a track that might just suit the car.

Remember Lando was caught out at the start, while Hulk had an amazing start. Lando was always chasing Hulk after going off and dropping to 15th. But I'd say their pace was pretty similar.

This is very true, and Lando did a heartening job for a British Mclaren fan Pace was similar, came from similar positions although Lando went a couple of places further back and came through behind Hulk for a massive comeback. But he wasn't eating up the Renaults by any margin and Hulk was on course to finish ahead. A terrific achievement by him and I feel like that fact is being bypassed. If you want to evaluate the cars, you just can't bypass that fact. There were cars on our level in race trim and others who weren't massively far behind. The Alfa in Kimis hands is pretty decent and one successful upgrade from being yet more of a danger to Mclaren in the race.

We are in the middle of a massive development fight, no doubt about it and it's too close for anyone to be number four, five or six.

At least that is my opinion. Some Q3s and one good drive does not a season make. But I would hope (and nothing more) that it is the start of something.

[FittingMechanics]

He kept up with Hulk, remember Hulk started some way back due to poor Qualy. Ric had a poor strategy and that is why he came through behind Hulk, not because Mclaren were much faster. We simply weren't beating Renault on pace by much at all. Hulk started 17th and would have finished ahead of Lando had his engine not gone.

I'm not dissing Mclaren, it's a very good car, but Hulks achievement bettered Lando in a car that is supposedly slower. We were probably a bit faster, but not by a margin that lets me think we are leaders, just cos we did well on a track that might just suit the car.

Remember that Norris is a rookie. Sainz probably still has a couple of tenths on Norris. Other than that, you are correct. Norris was not making inroads on Hulkenberg who maintained the gap on Norris. I am not sure, but I believe Hulkenberg had more sets of new tires which can probably explain a part of it.

Don't count them out yet. They reportedly have a big upgrade scheduled for China which should put them clear of the midfield.

I'm always wary of those "big updates" that should completely transform the car. Usually it doesn't change it that much and often times other teams bring their updates as well. I've read about the supposed situation and I am not sure I believe the story that is being told. Apparently the mistake RBR did is that they created a car with low downforce/drag, perhaps believing that Honda will lack the horsepower so they tried to maximize their speed. Now, story goes that Honda has good horsepower but that issue is RBR chassis and lack of downforce. I do not compute how this works out, surely if Honda had good power and RBR was low drag/downforce they would have been at tops of the speed traps and dominating the straights. However the fact is quite the opposite, comparison of Sainz vs Verstappen shows that Sainz was gaining on every straight while Verstappen gained the time in the corners.

I just don't buy the story. Something in the story is not true. Either RBR has more downforce/drag or Honda is not powerful enough.

McLaren looks like a car with little downforce/drag, gaining on the straights even with a Renault engine.

[SmallSoldier]

Nope, Norris was behind both Renaults at that point and Ric lost pace when he had his front wing squashed by Hulk.

Yes it is a good sign. But I said we had to fight for it, nothing said changes that. We are not outright ahead in midfield, if at all. We were on a track that likes us and forgave setbacks.

Of course Norris was behind both Renault’s, he was 15th by the end of lap 1... The fact that he was able to get behind both Renault’s (and at some point in within 2 seconds of Hulk) tells a very flattering story for both Norris and Mclaren... He did pass RIC after their collision, but watching the data on F1TV, Ric’s pace wasn’t hindered as much as one would think.

I don’t think that the team is at the front of midfield, I genuinely believe that the team are in the mix with Renault and that Haas is probably still ahead of the rest and just had an off day in Bahrain.

But I’m actually optimistic for China, if the car is running less downforce than the rest of the teams and still manages to be on the hunt, then that’s a good sign... It was said here that a new rear wing is on the works, who knows, we may see it in Testing tomorrow or Wednesday.


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He kept up with Hulk, remember Hulk started some way back due to poor Qualy. Ric had a poor strategy and that is why he came through behind Hulk, not because Mclaren were much faster. We simply weren't beating Renault on pace by much at all. Hulk started 17th and would have finished ahead of Lando had his engine not gone.

I'm not dissing Mclaren, it's a very good car, but Hulks achievement bettered Lando in a car that is supposedly slower. We were probably a bit faster, but not by a margin that lets me think we are leaders, just cos we did well on a track that might just suit the car.

I believe the missing point in your analysis is where Hulk and Norris were by the end of the first lap... While Hulk had already moved into 11th position (and RIC 19th)... Norris manages to get all the way to 2 seconds behind Hulk... That is pace alone, since you would have expected Hulk, who was running at the front and therefore having to deal with less traffic, should have had better pace.

He did made a move on RIC after RIC had pitted, but we should consider that his wing was probably damaged and that had to have an effect in performance.

Yesterday, Mclaren had more pace than Renault


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[FittingMechanics]

On an semi related note, is it me or do Renault powered cars launch of the line very quick? Both Renaults and Sainz had a really good start in Bahrain, could it be Renault engine related? Perhaps wider power band or something like that which enables them to get of the line quicker, but that doesn't translate to advantage in the rest of the race as the engines run in much higher RPM then? Just a random thought.

[FittingMechanics]

I believe the missing point in your analysis is where Hulk and Norris were by the end of the first lap... While Hulk had already moved into 11th position (and RIC 19th)... Norris manages to get all the way to 2 seconds behind Hulk... That is pace alone, since you would have expected Hulk, who was running at the front and therefore having to deal with less traffic, should have had better pace.

He did made a move on RIC after RIC had pitted, but we should consider that his wing was probably damaged and that had to have an effect in performance.

Yesterday, Mclaren had more pace than Renault

Another important fact that needs to be considered are the tires. Norris did not have a new set of Softs for the race while Hulkenberg had 3 new sets. Not sure of his stints, but I'm guessing he had two soft stints with one medium stint. This new tire advantage also helps.

[mwillems]

He kept up with Hulk, remember Hulk started some way back due to poor Qualy. Ric had a poor strategy and that is why he came through behind Hulk, not because Mclaren were much faster. We simply weren't beating Renault on pace by much at all. Hulk started 17th and would have finished ahead of Lando had his engine not gone.

I'm not dissing Mclaren, it's a very good car, but Hulks achievement bettered Lando in a car that is supposedly slower. We were probably a bit faster, but not by a margin that lets me think we are leaders, just cos we did well on a track that might just suit the car.

Remember that Norris is a rookie. Sainz probably still has a couple of tenths on Norris. Other than that, you are correct. Norris was not making inroads on Hulkenberg who maintained the gap on Norris. I am not sure, but I believe Hulkenberg had more sets of new tires which can probably explain a part of it.



McLaren looks like a car with little downforce/drag, gaining on the straights even with a Renault engine.

Yes but unfortunately Sainz was not savvy enough in his overtake to make it count. Had Ric not had a dodgy strategy, damage to the wing and a subsequent failure, we might have seen Sainz and Ric fighting, but that is all a bunch of ifs and so the race is what it is. Everyone has their issues and their limitations in the race, not just Mclaren and I don't feel it is right that we put it to the tyres and say we are faster anyway.
If we are one set of tyres from being faster in the race, it's not much of a difference. It's also possible that with more downforce, that set of tyres might have been enough and it is symptomatic of the cars traits.

Yeah agree with the drag element, we don't have enough downforce, but the downforce we do have is remarkably efficient. But further updates may demand less efficiency and change this.

[McMika98]

On an semi related note, is it me or do Renault powered cars launch of the line very quick? Both Renaults and Sainz had a really good start in Bahrain, could it be Renault engine related? Perhaps wider power band or something like that which enables them to get of the line quicker, but that doesn't translate to advantage in the rest of the race as the engines run in much higher RPM then? Just a random thought.

Nico was using a fresh set of tyres after his horror quali. Almost everyone in top 15 most likely were on scrubs. This also explains the jump Stroll was able to make who was behind Nico. Sainz has been known to make places on start. Car was great which gave confidence to push, Norris made places after few laps.

[SmallSoldier]

He kept up with Hulk, remember Hulk started some way back due to poor Qualy. Ric had a poor strategy and that is why he came through behind Hulk, not because Mclaren were much faster. We simply weren't beating Renault on pace by much at all. Hulk started 17th and would have finished ahead of Lando had his engine not gone.

I'm not dissing Mclaren, it's a very good car, but Hulks achievement bettered Lando in a car that is supposedly slower. We were probably a bit faster, but not by a margin that lets me think we are leaders, just cos we did well on a track that might just suit the car.

Remember Lando was caught out at the start, while Hulk had an amazing start. Lando was always chasing Hulk after going off and dropping to 15th. But I'd say their pace was pretty similar.

This is very true, and Lando did a heartening job for a British Mclaren fan Pace was similar, came from similar positions although Lando went a couple of places further back and came through behind Hulk for a massive comeback. But he wasn't eating up the Renaults by any margin and Hulk was on course to finish ahead. A terrific achievement by him and I feel like that fact is being bypassed. If you want to evaluate the cars, you just can't bypass that fact. There were cars on our level in race trim and others who weren't massively far behind. The Alfa in Kimis hands is pretty decent and one successful upgrade from being yet more of a danger to Mclaren in the race.

We are in the middle of a massive development fight, no doubt about it and it's too close for anyone to be number four, five or six.

At least that is my opinion. Some Q3s and one good drive does not a season make. But I would hope (and nothing more) that it is the start of something.

Absolutely and spot on... I’m not saying that McLaren is better than Renault, the first 2 races haven’t been a clear representation of Renault’s pace for me and I have a feeling that they are way better than what their results show.

But I believe that the data supports the fact that at least in Bahrain, McLaren was the superior car.


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[mwillems]

Remember Lando was caught out at the start, while Hulk had an amazing start. Lando was always chasing Hulk after going off and dropping to 15th. But I'd say their pace was pretty similar.

This is very true, and Lando did a heartening job for a British Mclaren fan Pace was similar, came from similar positions although Lando went a couple of places further back and came through behind Hulk for a massive comeback. But he wasn't eating up the Renaults by any margin and Hulk was on course to finish ahead. A terrific achievement by him and I feel like that fact is being bypassed. If you want to evaluate the cars, you just can't bypass that fact. There were cars on our level in race trim and others who weren't massively far behind. The Alfa in Kimis hands is pretty decent and one successful upgrade from being yet more of a danger to Mclaren in the race.

We are in the middle of a massive development fight, no doubt about it and it's too close for anyone to be number four, five or six.

At least that is my opinion. Some Q3s and one good drive does not a season make. But I would hope (and nothing more) that it is the start of something.

Absolutely and spot on... I’m not saying that McLaren is better than Renault, the first 2 races haven’t been a clear representation of Renault’s pace for me and I have a feeling that they are way better than what their results show.

But I believe that the data supports the fact that at least in Bahrain, McLaren was the superior car.


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That tyres data leads me to think we were fuel saving at the end. We made some time up on one set of used tyres, but weren't able to at the end of the race. Was it tyres, or could it have been that we had attacked for all we could afford and had to drive more conservatively afterwards. Or for all we know we were faster and they saw a blip in the data from the engine or MGU-K. How much were the Mclarens and Renaults fueled up?

I just feel that if we go either way it is an assumption. Anyway, I'm going to leave this particular discussion, I'm not sure there are facts enough to support any one conclusion but everyone is entitled to their own opinion whatever it may be, or however wrong you are, or I am

[geogate]

if lacking downforce, wouldnt you see that in high speed corners? Dont think ive seen any evidence of that (Im sure RBR has more, but assume the argument is that mclaren has unusually low downforce). It looks to me like the Renault has pretty decent power

[zoroastar]

Not trying to open a can of worms on the Carlos/Max incident, don't know if this has been posted

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18OE3O_t7mM

It would be interesting to see the telemetry... It would seem as if once he saw the Sainz was ahead, he “released” the brake just to get the car in there and ended up hitting Sainz...

But the reality is that it doesn’t matter at this point, since it won’t change the outcome


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yea i agree. thats why every driver on the grid knows not to pass max. sainz should have given him more room but max would rather do anything than get passed, and it usually results in a collision. its impossible to prove without telemetry but i think that he used the mclaren to slow his car down instead of his brakes

[mwillems]

if lacking downforce, wouldnt you see that in high speed corners? Dont think ive seen any evidence of that (Im sure RBR has more, but assume the argument is that mclaren has unusually low downforce). It looks to me like the Renault has pretty decent power

I think now when anyone says lacking downforce at this point we are comparing to the Red Bull, the highest, realistic but still difficult target for McLaren and others.

Though personally I think the best we can hope is that by snatching a few results from verstappen and praying that Gasly doesn't improve, that we stay on their tails.

There will be tracks like Monaco where they can still win if verstappen doesnt make a bee line for the walls. No such tracks for us I suspect.