Mercedes-AMG F1 W10 EQ Power+

[mantikos]

I wouldn't at all be surprised if Mercedes is going to implement a Ferrari-style front wing.

It would possibly require them to revise their entire concept down to the diffuser, also we have no guarantee that Ferrari's front wing concept is better. So perhaps you wouldn't be surprised, but I sure would.

Both Allison and Newey have said that this front wing has more development potential - why would they switch when they've tried it and decided against it during the development period?

The issue is (according to RB and Toto in the latest AMuS article) the engine - the Ferrari engine has gained 40 hp over winter and they're left scratching their heads as to how they pulled it off. Some fingers being pointed at Shell's fuel development as well.

[dfegan358]

Nobody said a word when Mercedes had huge engine advantage. Now when Ferrari has an engine to match merc people are looking to find out what is illegal.

[Polite]

I wouldn't at all be surprised if Mercedes is going to implement a Ferrari-style front wing.

It would possibly require them to revise their entire concept down to the diffuser, also we have no guarantee that Ferrari's front wing concept is better. So perhaps you wouldn't be surprised, but I sure would.

Both Allison and Newey have said that this front wing has more development potential - why would they switch when they've tried it and decided against it during the development period?

The issue is (according to RB and Toto in the latest AMuS article) the engine - the Ferrari engine has gained 40 hp over winter and they're left scratching their heads as to how they pulled it off. Some fingers being pointed at Shell's fuel development as well.

i dont think that Ferrari gained 40hp during winter. I think that the new oil regulation affected AMG more than everybody else, in quali but also in race. Infact, Ferrari claimed in the early 2019 that they gained the same power of 2018 also after the new oil regulation.
Also, everytime that the oil addiction was focused by the Fia, the Pu that was affected most is the one of Merc: everybody should remember Merc in 2017 in SPA/MONZA and the application of the the rule 0,9 to 0,6l oil for the all race. Well i have always thought that, in that stage of develpment, they cant reverse to a less oil thirsty pu till the end of that year.

your thoughts?

[Just_a_fan]

Nobody said a word when Mercedes had huge engine advantage. Now when Ferrari has an engine to match merc people are looking to find out what is illegal.

You weren't here. Trust me, the only thing people talked about was Mercedes's PU advantage.

[dfegan358]

Nobody said a word when Mercedes had huge engine advantage. Now when Ferrari has an engine to match merc people are looking to find out what is illegal.

You weren't here. Trust me, the only thing people talked about was Mercedes's PU advantage.

Fair enough I wasn’t here but was the discussion about what could possibly be illegal giving the Mercedes the advantage it had?

[dans79]

Nobody said a word when Mercedes had huge engine advantage. Now when Ferrari has an engine to match merc people are looking to find out what is illegal.

You weren't here. Trust me, the only thing people talked about was Mercedes's PU advantage.

Fair enough I wasn’t here but was the discussion about what could possibly be illegal giving the Mercedes the advantage it had?

It doesn't matter this is the wrong thread for this discussion!

[mantikos]

It would possibly require them to revise their entire concept down to the diffuser, also we have no guarantee that Ferrari's front wing concept is better. So perhaps you wouldn't be surprised, but I sure would.

Both Allison and Newey have said that this front wing has more development potential - why would they switch when they've tried it and decided against it during the development period?

The issue is (according to RB and Toto in the latest AMuS article) the engine - the Ferrari engine has gained 40 hp over winter and they're left scratching their heads as to how they pulled it off. Some fingers being pointed at Shell's fuel development as well.

i dont think that Ferrari gained 40hp during winter. I think that the new oil regulation affected AMG more than everybody else, in quali but also in race. Infact, Ferrari claimed in the early 2019 that they gained the same power of 2018 also after the new oil regulation.
Also, everytime that the oil addiction was focused by the Fia, the Pu that was affected most is the one of Merc: everybody should remember Merc in 2017 in SPA/MONZA and the application of the the rule 0,9 to 0,6l oil for the all race. Well i have always thought that, in that stage of develpment, they cant reverse to a less oil thirsty pu till the end of that year.

your thoughts?

To the contrary, the oil thing affected Ferrari adversely which is what set them back in the second half of the season. In fact the AMuS article talks about that too.
In the article Newey says that while FIA has added more sensors to close the loopholes, Ferrari might have found something else to give them a 40 hp, and .4XX second advantage in the straights at Bahrain. RB commented about the ester smell of the Shell fuel, which someone else who was at the track in Bahrain also commented about.

[zibby43]

Couple things.

- The AMuS article states that if the full 4 tenths on the straights came solely from sheer PU output, then that would theoretically translate to a 40 horsepower advantage. A tenth for every 10 horsepower is how they arrive there.

- If Merc really were running more downforce (which Toto and some of the engineers acknowledged, and Ferrari implied), it takes the overall advantage down to around 2-3 tenths, and that is being very conservative toward discounting the impact of setup.

- Then you have the phonometric analysis that was conducted at Bahrain that had Ferrari and Mercedes virtually dead even on power output based on qualifying analysis, with Ferrari having an edge on the hybrid side whereas Merc has an advantage on the endothermic side.

Just thought that was worth mentioning as I saw a trend of using that 40 horsepower gap pretty confidently based on 1 article and 1 qualifying session.

I'd kind of like to wait and see more, myself.

[Just_a_fan]

Nobody said a word when Mercedes had huge engine advantage. Now when Ferrari has an engine to match merc people are looking to find out what is illegal.

You weren't here. Trust me, the only thing people talked about was Mercedes's PU advantage.

Fair enough I wasn’t here but was the discussion about what could possibly be illegal giving the Mercedes the advantage it had?

There was nothing illegal in the engine. And there still isn't. So far as we know, the engine has been legal all the way through.

[Polite]

Both Allison and Newey have said that this front wing has more development potential - why would they switch when they've tried it and decided against it during the development period?

The issue is (according to RB and Toto in the latest AMuS article) the engine - the Ferrari engine has gained 40 hp over winter and they're left scratching their heads as to how they pulled it off. Some fingers being pointed at Shell's fuel development as well.

i dont think that Ferrari gained 40hp during winter. I think that the new oil regulation affected AMG more than everybody else, in quali but also in race. Infact, Ferrari claimed in the early 2019 that they gained the same power of 2018 also after the new oil regulation.
Also, everytime that the oil addiction was focused by the Fia, the Pu that was affected most is the one of Merc: everybody should remember Merc in 2017 in SPA/MONZA and the application of the the rule 0,9 to 0,6l oil for the all race. Well i have always thought that, in that stage of develpment, they cant reverse to a less oil thirsty pu till the end of that year.

your thoughts?

To the contrary, the oil thing affected Ferrari adversely which is what set them back in the second half of the season. In fact the AMuS article talks about that too.
In the article Newey says that while FIA has added more sensors to close the loopholes, Ferrari might have found something else to give them a 40 hp, and .4XX second advantage in the straights at Bahrain. RB commented about the ester smell of the Shell fuel, which someone else who was at the track in Bahrain also commented about.

Dont think so... oil rules affected all Merc and Ferr, same way. But i think affected more Merc: the 0,9 to 0,6l for race limit is the proof, or why Merc didnt respect that rule in 2017?. So maybe this deficit is still there..

[Polite]

Couple things.

- The AMuS article states that if the full 4 tenths on the straights came solely from sheer PU output, then that would theoretically translate to a 40 horsepower advantage. A tenth for every 10 horsepower is how they arrive there.

- If Merc really were running more downforce (which Toto and some of the engineers acknowledged, and Ferrari implied), it takes the overall advantage down to around 2-3 tenths, and that is being very conservative toward discounting the impact of setup.

- Then you have the phonometric analysis that was conducted at Bahrain that had Ferrari and Mercedes virtually dead even on power output based on qualifying analysis, with Ferrari having an edge on the hybrid side whereas Merc has an advantage on the endothermic side.

Just thought that was worth mentioning as I saw a trend of using that 40 horsepower gap pretty confidently based on 1 article and 1 qualifying session.

I'd kind of like to wait and see more, myself.

``- If Merc really were running more downforce (which Toto and some of the engineers acknowledged, and Ferrari implied), it takes the overall advantage down to around 2-3 tenths, and that is being very conservative toward discounting the impact of setup.`` no proof for this statemant from Amus, imho.

[hollus]

Just a gentle reminder that this is the car thread. Check the first post for reference.
The PU thread is a better place for PU talk, the team thread for pace talk.

[LM10]

- Then you have the phonometric analysis that was conducted at Bahrain that had Ferrari and Mercedes virtually dead even on power output based on qualifying analysis, with Ferrari having an edge on the hybrid side whereas Merc has an advantage on the endothermic side.

I’m shocked you’re still thinking this article about phonometric analysis was true. It was so obvious it was an april fool article.
There is not even anything called phonometric analysis, at least not to measure horsepower on cars. I mean, come on, just think about it. How do you imagine that? The article suggested there were 2 institutes on the track doing this analysis. Measuring horsepower by the car’s noises/sounds? How would that even work?

You tell that people are speaking about the 40 hp advantage based on 1 article. Well, you’re doing the same based on this joke article, aren’t you?

[zibby43]

``- If Merc really were running more downforce (which Toto and some of the engineers acknowledged, and Ferrari implied), it takes the overall advantage down to around 2-3 tenths, and that is being very conservative toward discounting the impact of setup.`` no proof for this statemant from Amus, imho.

From the translation:

"Ferrari team boss Mattia Binotto reminds us that Mercedes had more downforce and therefore lost on the straights. Toto Wolff replied. 'With better air resistance, you're only doing a tenth of a good job, but not four or five. That's sheer engine power.'"

Ferrari implied Mercedes were running more downforce. The way I read Toto's response, Toto is saying, that may have accounted for 1 tenth of the deficit, but not 4 tenths.

[PhillipM]

Measuring horsepower by the car’s noises/sounds? How would that even work?

Boy you're going to feel silly when you find out F1 teams have been doing sonic analysis at the trackside for decades.