General Honda F1 Topic

[yener]

Mercedes isn't 8 tenths ahead, that is ridiculous. They're 4 tenths ahead of Red Bull on race pace at best, in Spain the gap in the race was on average .35 seconds.

They can close the gap, won't be easy as they'll have to out develop Mercedes to do it. However I see enough potential in the car, once they figure out the tires and the aero, plus a little more from Honda.

There is your .3 right there, and even if Mercedes has a little more pace in hand, if Red Bull get within that .3 window Max can make a difference, they will start showing weakness and make more mistakes because they'll have to push harder to maintain the gap.

I also don't understand the wheelbase talk, Red Bull has plenty of space between the front wheels and side pod.

The shorter the wheelbase is just not giving them advantage right now, it gives them a smaller operating window of the airflows caused by the Front Wing. I will find an article where it is explained properly.

And mercedes is not only 0.4 seconds ahead at race pace. They are not showing more. The only thing they would have to do is call hammertime, give Hamilton another engine mod and magically the other 0.8 seconds will appear.

[godlameroso]

Mercedes isn't 8 tenths ahead, that is ridiculous. They're 4 tenths ahead of Red Bull on race pace at best, in Spain the gap in the race was on average .35 seconds.

They can close the gap, won't be easy as they'll have to out develop Mercedes to do it. However I see enough potential in the car, once they figure out the tires and the aero, plus a little more from Honda.

There is your .3 right there, and even if Mercedes has a little more pace in hand, if Red Bull get within that .3 window Max can make a difference, they will start showing weakness and make more mistakes because they'll have to push harder to maintain the gap.

I also don't understand the wheelbase talk, Red Bull has plenty of space between the front wheels and side pod.

The shorter the wheelbase is just not giving them advantage right now, it gives them a smaller operating window of the airflows caused by the Front Wing. I will find an article where it is explained properly.

And mercedes is not only 0.4 seconds ahead at race pace. They are not showing more. The only thing they would have to do is call hammertime, give Hamilton another engine mod and magically the other 0.8 seconds will appear.

How long can they sustain that pace? Does it come with drawbacks? In other words if they increase the pace will they have to dial it back later in the race?

If you look at the floor as it's own wing, then yes a longer car has more surface area, and hence can have a higher aero effect. A wing with more AOA is more likely to suffer separation, unless you add more elements and flow conditioners, this is basic aero understanding. Now Red Bull's chassis length is locked in, the wings are incredibly restricted and progress is iterative. So you can't make big gains, but you still have to develop it(front and rear wings), and are forced to spend resources to find insignificant amounts of time, but you can't stop doing it because everyone else is doing it to.

If the chassis, and floor are suffering because the wheelbase is too short and rake too high then that is a predicament. There are parts of the floor they would have to develop to get the airflow to stabilize under yaw, because lengthening the floor and by extension the wheelbase is out of the question this year. I have an idea about where on the car things could improve, and I'm sure they do as well. Would it be enough without a B spec chassis I don't know.

Both Red Bull and Honda are working incredibly hard, because they feel a lot of pressure and frustration. Honestly both Ferrari and Red Bull are feeling immense pressure because of Mercedes being such a close but far away target. In any case I don't think there is an .8 second gap, I stand by my statement it's at most .5 but closer to .4, and it is the 2nd fastest car on most circuits.

Red Bull made a small gain in Barcelona, they'll take another step forward ~ Silverstone, and hopefully that will be enough to start putting pressure on Mercedes.

[DutchDopey]

Mercedes isn't 8 tenths ahead, that is ridiculous. They're 4 tenths ahead of Red Bull on race pace at best, in Spain the gap in the race was on average .35 seconds.

They can close the gap, won't be easy as they'll have to out develop Mercedes to do it. However I see enough potential in the car, once they figure out the tires and the aero, plus a little more from Honda.

There is your .3 right there, and even if Mercedes has a little more pace in hand, if Red Bull get within that .3 window Max can make a difference, they will start showing weakness and make more mistakes because they'll have to push harder to maintain the gap.

I also don't understand the wheelbase talk, Red Bull has plenty of space between the front wheels and side pod.

Max has a gap of .35 seconds average. I seriously doubt a lot of other coureurs will get the same performance from the current RB. I also doubt RB is ahead of Fer., I think Max is ahead of Fer. not RB. The talk of Marko that RB is ahead of Fer. is bull, I think Max is making the difference.

[etusch]

Max has a gap of .35 seconds average. I seriously doubt a lot of other coureurs will get the same performance from the current RB. I also doubt RB is ahead of Fer., I think Max is ahead of Fer. not RB. The talk of Marko that RB is ahead of Fer. is bull, I think Max is making the difference.

Maybe Gasly is the one making difference in the other way. What if ricci still drive for Redbull? Both car would be ahead of Ferraris wouldn't it?

[yener]

Mercedes isn't 8 tenths ahead, that is ridiculous. They're 4 tenths ahead of Red Bull on race pace at best, in Spain the gap in the race was on average .35 seconds.

They can close the gap, won't be easy as they'll have to out develop Mercedes to do it. However I see enough potential in the car, once they figure out the tires and the aero, plus a little more from Honda.

There is your .3 right there, and even if Mercedes has a little more pace in hand, if Red Bull get within that .3 window Max can make a difference, they will start showing weakness and make more mistakes because they'll have to push harder to maintain the gap.

I also don't understand the wheelbase talk, Red Bull has plenty of space between the front wheels and side pod.

The shorter the wheelbase is just not giving them advantage right now, it gives them a smaller operating window of the airflows caused by the Front Wing. I will find an article where it is explained properly.

And mercedes is not only 0.4 seconds ahead at race pace. They are not showing more. The only thing they would have to do is call hammertime, give Hamilton another engine mod and magically the other 0.8 seconds will appear.
[/quote]

How long can they sustain that pace? Does it come with drawbacks? In other words if they increase the pace will they have to dial it back later in the race?


[/quote]

How long can they sustain that pace? Come on mate! They did sustain the last 4 years and Ferrari or RBR where never close to that MERC except last year Ferrari had a tiny chance.

Now the article which explains why the shorter wheelbase and high rake is causing problems this year;

Because the number of under-nose strakes has been limited to two per side this season, it’s been more difficult for aerodynamicists to guide the flow to the required parts of the bodywork with the necessary fidelity at all parts of the car’s aerodynamic map. So it can be, for example, that the division of flow between barge boards and underfloor works fine at one rake angle (when the car is being braked heavily, say) but not at another (when the car is no longer being braked or when it is accelerating). This would be consistent with the traits of the RB15 in the first two races.

he greater the static rake angle favoured by a team (effectively the angle of the car's floor relative to the ground), the greater such a problem would be magnified – and Red Bull infamously favour a very high static rake angle within a short wheelbase car. This format of car would be the least tolerant of any difficulty keeping that under-nose flow consistent between barge board and underbody.

Compared to a longer wheelbase car with a greater distance between front axle and cockpit, there is less distance for the airflow’s direction to be changed and furthermore, the high-rake floor will be inducing powerful negative pressure which could be influencing that under-nose flow very differently at low speeds than at high.


Red Bull believe that in the last two races they have largely got on top of that basic difficulty and so can now begin developing the car’s basic concept rather than attending to an unanticipated problem.

A key innovative feature of the RB15 is its unique front suspension design, which uses separate mounting points to the wheel hub for the two legs of the upper wishbone.

There are several potential advantages of such a layout over the conventional single mounting point for both legs. Because the rear leg can now move in line with the steering arm, there is no longer a need to have a cut-out in that leg to allow adequate steering lock. This will make the leg stronger for a given weight – or lighter for the same weight.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... KEsAo.html

[etusch]

If Redbull and Ferrari are close mercedes at higher speed turns but lost against mercedes at lower speed turns how it can be aerodynamical issue ?

[DutchDopey]

Max has a gap of .35 seconds average. I seriously doubt a lot of other coureurs will get the same performance from the current RB. I also doubt RB is ahead of Fer., I think Max is ahead of Fer. not RB. The talk of Marko that RB is ahead of Fer. is bull, I think Max is making the difference.

Maybe Gasly is the one making difference in the other way. What if ricci still drive for Redbull? Both car would be ahead of Ferraris wouldn't it?

I doubt that, the margin on Barcelona was so tiny that if you would project the speed difference from 2018 between Ric and Max, Ric would be behind Fer. Not as much as Gasly, but still behind.

[yener]

If Redbull and Ferrari are close mercedes at higher speed turns but lost against mercedes at lower speed turns how it can be aerodynamical issue ?

Because at the entry of the slow corners they are not losing, but in the middle and exit of the slow corners they lose time. Just as the article said. The angle could be just right under braking and when they are off a slight difference in the angle will change the flow of the air direction. So i believe the bargeboards and diffuser miss some flow at.

The concept of the car is wrong. And building a whole new one wont happen this year. Lets see what happens next week. I will eat my shoes if Mercedes wont crush all the others again.

[etusch]

If Redbull and Ferrari are close mercedes at higher speed turns but lost against mercedes at lower speed turns how it can be aerodynamical issue ?

Because at the entry of the slow corners they are not losing, but in the middle and exit of the slow corners they lose time. Just as the article said. The angle could be just right under braking and when they are off a slight difference in the angle will change the flow of the air direction. So i believe the bargeboards and diffuser miss some flow at.

The concept of the car is wrong. And building a whole new one wont happen this year. Lets see what happens next week. I will eat my shoes if Mercedes wont crush all the others again.

There is such a talk but it is outside talk. I remember that when Honda'd new engine architecture (2017 ) encounter oil tank issue, some said it is fundemantal issue but it was not. It was simple. And it was not because of Honda itself.
At start they were talking if mercedes went wrong direction and now it is Ferrari and rake of Redbull. These are talking or writing these kind of things, this is their job. We also seeking news and like to read. But many of them are not valid.
In the other hand, Racing point says, they will intruduce almost new car until germany with new concept. so if needed Redbull also can do that. But I don't think so. I don't think that they need to change concept completely.

İt Monaco was the race we, Honda fans , expecting Redbull victory. But mercedes looks so strong that they can be win here too. Still Redbull also can win. Low speed grip advantage may loss againg shorter wheelbase. Let's see the race.

[Hino]

[ispano6]

https://en.hondaracingf1.com/races/2019 ... -prix.html

[JordanMugen]

If Redbull and Ferrari are close mercedes at higher speed turns but lost against mercedes at lower speed turns how it can be aerodynamical issue ?

Because high speed corner = small yaw angle (therefore floor sealing is OK), low speed corner = large yaw angle (therefore floor sealing doesn't work). It is a misconception that downforce is not important in low speed turns -- after all that is why all teams run maximum downforce in Monaco.

[JordanMugen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... UhCsMI62pY

Is that the same motor home as that last time Honda was in F1? It seems dated.

Also why does Honda have a separate motor home to Red Bull Technologies -- seems unnecessary!?

[etusch]

If Redbull and Ferrari are close mercedes at higher speed turns but lost against mercedes at lower speed turns how it can be aerodynamical issue ?

Because high speed corner = small yaw angle (therefore floor sealing is OK), low speed corner = large yaw angle (therefore floor sealing doesn't work). It is a misconception that downforce is not important in low speed turns -- after all that is why all teams run maximum downforce in Monaco.

Still I think, It is logical that what I questioned.
Downfoce is related with speed. They uses higher df settings but it can not produce high df because of low speed at monaco. If someone can achieved to get better df level, so it will make bigger df difference with others when speed is higher and lesser difference when speed is low. If I am correct by now, if Ferrari and Redbull are similar to Mercedes at high speed corners then Mercedes speed at low speed corners must be coming from something else.

[JordanMugen]

I maintain the front wheels are generally turned more in low speed corners, therefore upsetting the aerodynamics. Whereas fast corners generally have less steering angle.