Autonomous Cars

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roon
roon
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Joined: 17 Dec 2016, 19:04

Re: Autonomous Cars

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Goes even moreso for motorcycling. It teaches awareness and defensiveness very well. Good safety advice is to never rely on a safety device. On a motorcycle you have few if any.

Enthusiasts shouldn't be too worried about the progressions ahead. They and motorcyclists will be the only humans left driving on the roads.

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subcritical71
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Joined: 17 Jul 2018, 20:04
Location: USA-Florida

Re: Autonomous Cars

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Just_a_fan wrote:
20 May 2019, 15:37
Indeed so. Car control is nowhere near as important as observation, forward planning etc.
This is where AV will beat a human, imho. As this video shows, the Tesla is able to track a lot of objects. I would think a human cannot have a complete understanding of closure rates for more than a few objects. And the mind can be tricked pretty easily.


Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Autonomous Cars

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roon wrote:
20 May 2019, 16:43

Enthusiasts shouldn't be too worried about the progressions ahead. They and motorcyclists will be the only humans left driving on the roads.
At some point I would expect human drivers to be outlawed, to be honest. At some point, when the AI is mature enough, AI-directed vehicles will the be only vehicles allowed on the road.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Autonomous Cars

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subcritical71 wrote:
20 May 2019, 17:05
Just_a_fan wrote:
20 May 2019, 15:37
Indeed so. Car control is nowhere near as important as observation, forward planning etc.
This is where AV will beat a human, imho. As this video shows, the Tesla is able to track a lot of objects. I would think a human cannot have a complete understanding of closure rates for more than a few objects. And the mind can be tricked pretty easily.

https://youtu.be/_1MHGUC_BzQ
I would expect a mature AI implementation to have all road users "talking" to one another, so the car's AI doesn't have to track everything, but is told what each other AI is intending to do (tracking would be a back up to that, as it makes sense to do both). The AIs would still need to actively track pedestrians, I suppose, although it would make sense to segregate pedestrians from wheeled traffic. Of course, it makes sense to do so now but society/politicians don't want to spend the money to do it properly.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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Andres125sx
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Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Autonomous Cars

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Just_a_fan wrote:
20 May 2019, 12:09
Some rally drivers are involved in crashes on the road sections between special stages, not just when driving flat out on the special stages themselves.
Because of fatigue mainly after some demanding specials. Also, they are a lot more stressed than common drivers

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Andres125sx
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Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Autonomous Cars

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henry wrote:
20 May 2019, 14:10
Car control is a small subset of the skills required to drive on the public highway. It could be argued that if one is having to use significant car control expertise somebody has made a mistake.
Agree, that´s the reason I did this clarification
Andres125sx wrote:
20 May 2019, 11:37
Actually we don't even need to control the car in dangerous situations, just learning when the car is reaching its limits to increase safety margins would save many lifes

I´ve lived at least two situations when the driver caused an accident, or almost, because of not knowing car limits. One was my mother spinning on a roundabout in the wet, because she knows nothing about car limits, car control, etc. She did a right turn to enter the roundabout, then a left turn to take the corner. That direction change caused the spin. If she would have know something about car control, or at least when the car is about the limit (wheel feedback, vibrations, etc.) she probably could have save it, but she didn´t and actually didn´t understand the reason of the spin until I did explain it to her.

The other was a friend of mine going straight on a corner. Thankfully it was a very slow corner with plenty of space to not crash anything. His face when the understeering took him by surprise, wondering about the reason the car was not turning despite he turned the wheel will be on my mind forever. It was enlightening to me, things wich we motor fans think are obvious are not for many people on the roads, not even a simple understeer or where are his car limits, and this means they are VERY dangerous on any dangerous situation. At least my mother and my friend don´t like driving and do it slowly, but there are many people with same lack of knownledge who drive much faster... #-o

Once you know some basics, you know how to read car feedback to notice if you´re close to the limit or not. For example I´ve noticed this on some old and dirty roads in the rain, where grip was so low I was almost on the limit even when driving slow. I did notice this due to wheel feedback (becoming too light) so I adapted and slowed down. Someone like my mother or my friend would have never noticed this, and maybe they may have crashed on next corner.

My point is, even when we should never drive on the limits, some accidents could be prevented with some basic knownledge about car control. That´s the reason I hope in a future with AVs as a norm, humans will be allowed to drive if they prove they know the basics. But that´s just my naive hope, knowing how things usually work some politician will ban humans from roads sooner or later I´m afraid

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loner
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Joined: 26 Feb 2016, 18:34

Re: Autonomous Cars

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Just_a_fan wrote:
20 May 2019, 18:18
roon wrote:
20 May 2019, 16:43

Enthusiasts shouldn't be too worried about the progressions ahead. They and motorcyclists will be the only humans left driving on the roads.
At some point I would expect human drivers to be outlawed, to be honest. At some point, when the AI is mature enough, AI-directed vehicles will the be only vehicles allowed on the road.

Image
para bellum.

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FrukostScones
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Location: European Union

Re: Autonomous Cars

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All free roaming motorists & motocyclists will be zapped by killer drones anyway in the future.

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Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Autonomous Cars

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Goes even moreso for motorcycling. It teaches awareness and defensiveness very well.
Takes me back to when I advocated that you should be a license to drive a car until you've driven a motorcycle for at least a year...maybe two. :wink:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Autonomous Cars

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Sorry to labour the point guys (and come in late, been away to somewhere the driving is atrocious) but we need to consider that (to my mind) a huge % of accidents are if not caused, then at least made worst case, is that Driver B,C,D, and E do not know what driver A is doing, or intending to do. The interlinking of cars and other road users can cut down the number and severity of accidents immensely. Even if it blocks a vehicle reversing beyond a point when 'it' knows there is a kid on a cycle coming along the footpath at a pace that will coincide at that point, or change lanes when another vehicle is doing the mirror image.
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Giblet
Giblet
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Re: Autonomous Cars

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Even if autonomous cars are not linked, they still have more eyes than us and can see, track, and predict more things at once than we can.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

Nickel
Nickel
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Joined: 02 Jun 2011, 18:10
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Re: Autonomous Cars

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Anyone care to posit how autonomous vehicles will be made to work in a snowstorm? road grit, snow and ice will be a significant impediment to cameras and wheel speed sensors are useless at best, a hindrance at worst.

A friend and I were discussing this recently and found it difficult to believe autonomous vehicles to be "right around the corner" in snowy climes.

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Zynerji
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Re: Autonomous Cars

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Nickel wrote:
25 May 2019, 18:36
Anyone care to posit how autonomous vehicles will be made to work in a snowstorm? road grit, snow and ice will be a significant impediment to cameras and wheel speed sensors are useless at best, a hindrance at worst.

A friend and I were discussing this recently and found it difficult to believe autonomous vehicles to be "right around the corner" in snowy climes.
New laws against allowing your car to run out of washer-fluid?? :shock: :shock:

Gotta keep them sensors clean!

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subcritical71
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Joined: 17 Jul 2018, 20:04
Location: USA-Florida

Re: Autonomous Cars

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Nickel wrote:
25 May 2019, 18:36
Anyone care to posit how autonomous vehicles will be made to work in a snowstorm? road grit, snow and ice will be a significant impediment to cameras and wheel speed sensors are useless at best, a hindrance at worst.

A friend and I were discussing this recently and found it difficult to believe autonomous vehicles to be "right around the corner" in snowy climes.
Think of the camera lens as the windshield. Put the same impediments in front of a human driver and how will it work out? Since all cars on the road today need to have driver interaction (ie. not AV), the camera systems are not designed for all conditions. But for AV the cameras can have systems put in place just like there are systems for windshields which will allow a driver a clear view.

https://electrek.co/2016/12/20/tesla-au ... ters-snow/

Wheel speed sensors are hardly affected by snow anymore. I post this next video knowing the comment will be that the car was in AP mode when it lost control but anyone can loose control of a car in icing conditions, its how you react to correct that is the difference here.


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Phil
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Joined: 25 Sep 2012, 16:22

Re: Autonomous Cars

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The really relevant question is, why was the car in a slide in the first place? It's a good thing there was no one on the lane next to it. Who knows, maybe the car was constantly overdriving relative to the conditions? That would change the "story" quite dramatically.
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