2019 Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

[Andres125sx]

You don't have to be in the engineering room. Just look at the Monaco Gap. Like I said before, every team has atleast 20% more power than they can use there. They all run as much DF as they can cause, well, they have more power than they can use. That Qualifying Gap is all Chassis and tires. It says it all. Merc has hands down the best Chassis this year. With that GAP, doesn't matter what PU they used, they'd still be behind. Big change from last year where RBR would have been 1 & 2 in Monaco if it wasn't for the "Max" issue.

Wow what a bold statement for someone who think he knows everything and anyone disagreing is wrong

If my memory serves me, Monaco is around 30% full throttle, the lowest on the calendar, but that´s far from meaning they have more power than they can use. It actually means in one third of the track they could use more power. Fact.

But even in the rest of the track, PUs can make a difference too, even if not at full throttle. Driveability is another important factor, how drivers can apply the power to the tarmac. Some weeks ago Sainz said for the TV Honda PU is very good when they´re traction limited, but it´s lacking when they engage 5th gear and above. That means in Monaco Honda is probably a better PU than Renault, even if it´s providing less power (and that´s not sure).

Power is just one parameter in a PU, not the only one

How would Sainz know if the Honda PU is very good if he has never driven a car with one in it?


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Because he´s chased a car with a Honda PU while he was driving a Renault PU, so you can be sure he knows better than any of us

[Andres125sx]

The problem with hoping you gain from rain is that by being just half a lap out from your 'want' it can lose you a lot of time. Tyres will not last any longer, so pit, then 30 seconds later it rains.
Nice gap to following car, rain, car in front goes off and safety car. You lose your buffer etc. Fine for us to want rain to improve the spectacle, but it think it is not wise for the drivers to do a rain dance.

It can also be the other way around, and when your normal position is around 8th (4 points), improving 3 positions will make you score 6 added points, while losing 3 positions will make you loose 4 points. If it´s 4 positions instead of 3 the difference is higher (8 vs 4). So for a team like McLaren right now, a chaotic race can make them win more than they can lose

Let alone if the race is one of those crazy races where many top cars have problems and some unexpected driver/team reach the podium, wich I´m sure was Lando wish when making that statement. Extremely optimistic obviously, but plausible

[diffuser]

Well, im not in the engineering room to look at the data, even if they themselves dont know exact how much ( remember with honda? ) so i think its a good portion lacking of engine power that in turn forces a team like Mclaren to run less downforce, and that makes the chassis look worse than it is... its a vicious cycle.
Redbull with the honda engine is doing the same, but they seems to be able to generate more from the car than others and can get away with less wing. But i bet if they had the power mercedes has.. with the same wing angles, redbull wold be champions...

You don't have to be in the engineering room. Just look at the Monaco Gap. Like I said before, every team has atleast 20% more power than they can use there. They all run as much DF as they can cause, well, they have more power than they can use. That Qualifying Gap is all Chassis and tires. It says it all. Merc has hands down the best Chassis this year. With that GAP, doesn't matter what PU they used, they'd still be behind. Big change from last year where RBR would have been 1 & 2 in Monaco if it wasn't for the "Max" issue.

Wow what a bold statement for someone who think he knows everything and anyone disagreeing is wrong

If my memory serves me, Monaco is around 30% full throttle, the lowest on the calendar, but that´s far from meaning they have more power than they can use. It actually means in one third of the track they could use more power. Fact.

But even in the rest of the track, PUs can make a difference too, even if not at full throttle. Drive-ability is another important factor, how drivers can apply the power to the tarmac. Some weeks ago Sainz said for the TV Honda PU is very good when they´re traction limited, but it´s lacking when they engage 5th gear and above. That means in Monaco Honda is probably a better PU than Renault, even if it´s providing less power (and that´s not sure).

Power is just one parameter in a PU, not the only one


Edit: and they do NOT use as much DF as possible because they can´t use the available power, they use as much DF as possible because the only drawback with DF is the added drag lowering top speed, but on a track like Monaco with no long straights, drag is not a big penalty because the average speed is very low, while DF is providing more speed though the corners which basically means around most of the track, so it´s worth adding as much DF as possible

Nope just him. Not that i dislike him or anything, just disagree with him . Am I not allowed ?

- When was the last time they check that 30% Full throttle? Full throttle of what, the least demanding PU Mapping? on a PU that in most cases has run 5 other races, that you likely don't want to be pushing any more?


We weren't taking about Drive-ability, which I personally think is a joke, nor did I say Honda had less power. Initially the conversation was about him not believing what Cyril said about the Renault PU matching Merc and Ferrari in race conditions.

With regards with your DF remarks, I agree. you're just looking at it from the other side.

[diffuser]

Wow what a bold statement for someone who think he knows everything and anyone disagreing is wrong

If my memory serves me, Monaco is around 30% full throttle, the lowest on the calendar, but that´s far from meaning they have more power than they can use. It actually means in one third of the track they could use more power. Fact.

But even in the rest of the track, PUs can make a difference too, even if not at full throttle. Driveability is another important factor, how drivers can apply the power to the tarmac. Some weeks ago Sainz said for the TV Honda PU is very good when they´re traction limited, but it´s lacking when they engage 5th gear and above. That means in Monaco Honda is probably a better PU than Renault, even if it´s providing less power (and that´s not sure).

Power is just one parameter in a PU, not the only one

How would Sainz know if the Honda PU is very good if he has never driven a car with one in it?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Because he´s chased a car with a Honda PU while he was driving a Renault PU, so you can be sure he knows better than any of us

Traction limited, does that mean its very good when they're not on full throttle? Could be a backhanded compliment.

[BrunoH]

there is a reason why Mclaren and Redbull have thinner rear wings... its to compensate for the power-gap!
like i said before its a vicious circle. you dont have as much power, you take wing off or have a slimmer wing profile, when you do you have less DF, so chassis and tires suffer, you get problems with traction, problems with corner speed and even braking does not have as much ´´parachute effect ´´ and with more power you can do the opposite .

so yes one thing is very much tied to the other and can have a serious effect on tire temps, the setup you can choose, you limit your options.

[diffuser]

there is a reason why Mclaren and Redbull have thinner rear wings... its to compensate for the power-gap!
like i said before its a vicious circle. you dont have as much power, you take wing off or have a slimmer wing profile, when you do you have less DF, so chassis and tires suffer, you get problems with traction, problems with corner speed and even braking does not have as much ´´parachute effect ´´ and with more power you can do the opposite .

so yes one thing is very much tied to the other and can have a serious effect on tire temps, the setup you can choose, you limit your options.

you're still in 2018.

[zoroastar]

from everything that ive heard in 2019, from people that actually should know, PU's are pretty equal in race trim. anything abitiboul says is immediately criticized as a lie, but this year anyone that has actually spoken about the renault power unit says that it is basically there with every other PU. the only complaints are reliability problems. sainz seemed very happy with it earlier in the season even after it blew up in the first race. if anything i think the honda is possibly the lowest slightly, but thats just a guess. everyone should be happy that the wdc wont be won on engine power alone.

[Andres125sx]

You don't have to be in the engineering room. Just look at the Monaco Gap. Like I said before, every team has atleast 20% more power than they can use there. They all run as much DF as they can cause, well, they have more power than they can use. That Qualifying Gap is all Chassis and tires. It says it all. Merc has hands down the best Chassis this year. With that GAP, doesn't matter what PU they used, they'd still be behind. Big change from last year where RBR would have been 1 & 2 in Monaco if it wasn't for the "Max" issue.

Wow what a bold statement for someone who think he knows everything and anyone disagreeing is wrong

If my memory serves me, Monaco is around 30% full throttle, the lowest on the calendar, but that´s far from meaning they have more power than they can use. It actually means in one third of the track they could use more power. Fact.

But even in the rest of the track, PUs can make a difference too, even if not at full throttle. Drive-ability is another important factor, how drivers can apply the power to the tarmac. Some weeks ago Sainz said for the TV Honda PU is very good when they´re traction limited, but it´s lacking when they engage 5th gear and above. That means in Monaco Honda is probably a better PU than Renault, even if it´s providing less power (and that´s not sure).

Power is just one parameter in a PU, not the only one


Edit: and they do NOT use as much DF as possible because they can´t use the available power, they use as much DF as possible because the only drawback with DF is the added drag lowering top speed, but on a track like Monaco with no long straights, drag is not a big penalty because the average speed is very low, while DF is providing more speed though the corners which basically means around most of the track, so it´s worth adding as much DF as possible

Nope just him. Not that i dislike him or anything, just disagree with him . Am I not allowed ?

- When was the last time they check that 30% Full throttle? Full throttle of what, the least demanding PU Mapping? on a PU that in most cases has run 5 other races, that you likely don't want to be pushing any more?


We weren't taking about Drive-ability, which I personally think is a joke, nor did I say Honda had less power. Initially the conversation was about him not believing what Cyril said about the Renault PU matching Merc and Ferrari in race conditions.

With regards with your DF remarks, I agree. you're just looking at it from the other side.

Disagreeing, yes, obviously, but you stated you´re wrong wich is different

[Andres125sx]

How would Sainz know if the Honda PU is very good if he has never driven a car with one in it?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Because he´s chased a car with a Honda PU while he was driving a Renault PU, so you can be sure he knows better than any of us

Traction limited, does that mean its very good when they're not on full throttle? Could be a backhanded compliment.

Yes that´s what it means, but if you think driveability is a joke...

[diffuser]

Because he´s chased a car with a Honda PU while he was driving a Renault PU, so you can be sure he knows better than any of us

Traction limited, does that mean its very good when they're not on full throttle? Could be a backhanded compliment.

Yes that´s what it means, but if you think driveability is a joke...

I do. They've all been working on it for 5 years. Now all of a sudden 1 team's cornered the market on Drive-ability? They Have huge advantage on drive-ability? Get real.

It was something early on in this PU age. 5 years is a life time in F1.

[diffuser]

Wow what a bold statement for someone who think he knows everything and anyone disagreeing is wrong

If my memory serves me, Monaco is around 30% full throttle, the lowest on the calendar, but that´s far from meaning they have more power than they can use. It actually means in one third of the track they could use more power. Fact.

But even in the rest of the track, PUs can make a difference too, even if not at full throttle. Drive-ability is another important factor, how drivers can apply the power to the tarmac. Some weeks ago Sainz said for the TV Honda PU is very good when they´re traction limited, but it´s lacking when they engage 5th gear and above. That means in Monaco Honda is probably a better PU than Renault, even if it´s providing less power (and that´s not sure).

Power is just one parameter in a PU, not the only one


Edit: and they do NOT use as much DF as possible because they can´t use the available power, they use as much DF as possible because the only drawback with DF is the added drag lowering top speed, but on a track like Monaco with no long straights, drag is not a big penalty because the average speed is very low, while DF is providing more speed though the corners which basically means around most of the track, so it´s worth adding as much DF as possible

Nope just him. Not that i dislike him or anything, just disagree with him . Am I not allowed ?

- When was the last time they check that 30% Full throttle? Full throttle of what, the least demanding PU Mapping? on a PU that in most cases has run 5 other races, that you likely don't want to be pushing any more?


We weren't taking about Drive-ability, which I personally think is a joke, nor did I say Honda had less power. Initially the conversation was about him not believing what Cyril said about the Renault PU matching Merc and Ferrari in race conditions.

With regards with your DF remarks, I agree. you're just looking at it from the other side.

Disagreeing, yes, obviously, but you stated you´re wrong wich is different

Hate to state the obvious but if we disagree one or both of us are wrong.

[bone]

We weren't taking about Drive-ability, which I personally think is a joke

you should go drive an overtuned 2 stroke drag racing engine on the road, and then come back to this statement...
drive-ability is sooooo very important, even more than top power

[101FlyingDutchman]

Can we stop talking about this now? Thanks

[mwillems]

Wow what a bold statement for someone who think he knows everything and anyone disagreeing is wrong

If my memory serves me, Monaco is around 30% full throttle, the lowest on the calendar, but that´s far from meaning they have more power than they can use. It actually means in one third of the track they could use more power. Fact.

But even in the rest of the track, PUs can make a difference too, even if not at full throttle. Drive-ability is another important factor, how drivers can apply the power to the tarmac. Some weeks ago Sainz said for the TV Honda PU is very good when they´re traction limited, but it´s lacking when they engage 5th gear and above. That means in Monaco Honda is probably a better PU than Renault, even if it´s providing less power (and that´s not sure).

Power is just one parameter in a PU, not the only one


Edit: and they do NOT use as much DF as possible because they can´t use the available power, they use as much DF as possible because the only drawback with DF is the added drag lowering top speed, but on a track like Monaco with no long straights, drag is not a big penalty because the average speed is very low, while DF is providing more speed though the corners which basically means around most of the track, so it´s worth adding as much DF as possible

Nope just him. Not that i dislike him or anything, just disagree with him . Am I not allowed ?

- When was the last time they check that 30% Full throttle? Full throttle of what, the least demanding PU Mapping? on a PU that in most cases has run 5 other races, that you likely don't want to be pushing any more?


We weren't taking about Drive-ability, which I personally think is a joke, nor did I say Honda had less power. Initially the conversation was about him not believing what Cyril said about the Renault PU matching Merc and Ferrari in race conditions.

With regards with your DF remarks, I agree. you're just looking at it from the other side.

Disagreeing, yes, obviously, but you stated you´re wrong wich is different

This conversation seems a bit excessive. 'You're wrong' is definitely forthright but it's hardly shutting someone down.

You're reply was just as forthright, more personal and a clearer attempt to shut someone down. I'd take my own guess and suggest that was symptomatic of the day you were having as much as anything else, which is fair enough. But why doesnt everyone shake hands and move on

[Ground Effect]

Thoughts so far?