2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

[turbof1]

I agree it’s vague.
However I imagine the FIA asked what the part was. As it was the throttle actuator I imagine the FIA thought ‘well that’s not exactly critical or going to create any diffrence so that’s ok’.

And that's fine. It's quite logical that Mercedes were allowed to do that. However, I do imagine eventually you will reach a situation where one team says it is similar and the FIA saying "nah it isn't. Pitlane start for you". I also feel that inferior parts should also be an exception to the rule. Hulkenberg got outright screwed in Monaco. You can feel his pain now that he hears that Mercedes neither had a "identical" part (which again is not what the rules actually demand, just to be clear) and was allowed to use that. Of course, a front wing has a huge impact on performance, the hydraulics of a throttle actuator little to none. But that spare front wing was inferior to the Monaco spec wing; it is safe to say there was no performance gain eyed there by Renault.

I think the problem with aero and deeming it worse is... we don't know it's worse. A new spec wing can seem right but you find out it's slower. Loads of teams revert to an old wing/aero package or part of it after testing because they just can't make the new part work. Likewise many teams drop from a higher downforce qualifying optimised for a laptime with no traffic to a low downforce/drag setup to maximise passing if they end up crashing and having to start from the back.

In other words saying "oh, but this wing is totally worse, it's totally fine we use that right" would be horrendously open to abuse. Do a great laptime, spin, tap a wall, okay I'm putting my lower downforce wing on now.

With aero older spec doesn't necessarily mean worse.

You do realise that before qualifying they can change whatever they want, right? It's in qualifying, when you need your best performance, that parc ferme rules are elligible. In order to make abuse of it should rules allow a different spec front wing, you'd need to start qualifying with an inferior wing and then crash your car. That doesn't really make sense to do.

Of course, a case like Mercedes where the issue is picked afterwards, that is much more open to abuse. You could therefore argue a ruling that you are only allowed to change to a different spec if the damage happened during the qualifying or race session.

[Big Tea]

Why did he need to brake? He always had a cars width in front of him to drive in to.

He tapped the brake pedal became he got a little sideways and had to back out of it. Trying to pass on the wet part of the track.

Depends on what is considered 'track limits' Vettel was right up on the white line at one point, so if the line is track limits he was defiantly a cars width away with his inside tyres. ( 38 sec here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqhX-ZzPhzo ) It was 'marginal' at very best even if they consider the wall as track limits.

I think there are two camps and no one is going to move from the one they are in now. Any talk will not affect the outcome of the race and probably will not change any posters mind. (is fun though)

Hold on..... Im talking about Monaco 2016 in response to lm10. The Canada incident vettel left 0 space. Not even an inch.

Apologies, but same thing (although I do not recall it). once someone, and I include myself, is convinced, they will not change their mind.

[Gothrek]

Misinformed and confused (as to what competition means) fans I guess. Why would otherwise anyone would think there was no competition. First between two team mates (2014-16) and then between two teams (2017-18).

Can you please share what you are smoking? Even the RBR era had more competition. Even though Vettel didnt manage to give a WDC to his team mate. This is one the most dominant eras ever in F1.

[NathanOlder]

Misinformed and confused (as to what competition means) fans I guess. Why would otherwise anyone would think there was no competition. First between two team mates (2014-16) and then between two teams (2017-18).

Can you please share what you are smoking? Even the RBR era had more competition. Even though Vettel didnt manage to give a WDC to his team mate. This is one the most dominant eras ever in F1.

Vettel didn't give a title to his team mate, you are quite right. But he certainly gave a title to Lewis the last few years. Ferrari were well capable of winning a title the last few years. The competition in 17 and 18 was great. Even red bull won a fair few races.

Not sure what you were watching then.

[TAG]

Misinformed and confused (as to what competition means) fans I guess. Why would otherwise anyone would think there was no competition. First between two team mates (2014-16) and then between two teams (2017-18).

Can you please share what you are smoking? Even the RBR era had more competition. Even though Vettel didnt manage to give a WDC to his team mate. This is one the most dominant eras ever in F1.

Vettel won 9 races in a row. Something no Mercedes driver has achived. Vettel's point leads in 2011 and 2013 were gigantic chasms to the guy finishing in 2nd place.

[dans79]

Honestly, I believe a great deal of the outrage related to Vettel's penalty, is just Ferrari and "show" fans who are desperate to see anyone other than Mercedes win.

[Midi]

Honestly, I believe a great deal of the outrage related to Vettel's penalty, is just Ferrari and "show" fans who are desperate to see anyone other than Mercedes win.

There might be some truth in that but you can replace "just Ferrari and "show" fans" by all other than Mercedes fans I guess

[Gothrek]

Misinformed and confused (as to what competition means) fans I guess. Why would otherwise anyone would think there was no competition. First between two team mates (2014-16) and then between two teams (2017-18).

Can you please share what you are smoking? Even the RBR era had more competition. Even though Vettel didnt manage to give a WDC to his team mate. This is one the most dominant eras ever in F1.

Vettel won 9 races in a row. Something no Mercedes driver has achived. Vettel's point leads in 2011 and 2013 were gigantic chasms to the guy finishing in 2nd place.

Not my fault Hamilton cannot massacre his very mediocre teammates.

Btw, a good way to see how dominant a car is is to compare the speed to the next car. It has already been proven that in 2011 mclaren was the faster car. Not RBR. Also that Mercedes is way more dominant than RBR ever was.

[TAG]

Can you please share what you are smoking? Even the RBR era had more competition. Even though Vettel didnt manage to give a WDC to his team mate. This is one the most dominant eras ever in F1.

Vettel won 9 races in a row. Something no Mercedes driver has achived. Vettel's point leads in 2011 and 2013 were gigantic chasms to the guy finishing in 2nd place.

Not my fault Hamilton cannot massacre his very mediocre teammates.

Btw, a good way to see how dominant a car is is to compare the speed to the next car. It has already been proven that in 2011 mclaren was the faster car. Not RBR. Also that Mercedes is way more dominant than RBR ever was.

Listen, I understand your frustration. In a way you should look at the silver lining. I say be glad it was a mere messy off track excursion from Vettel instead of the beautiful pirouettes he's made a habit of doing over the last couple of years. At least Sunday he only lost one position.

EDIT: I do remember Vettel's comments though during that RBR domination... "Maybe the other guys just aren't working hard enough".

[NL_Fer]

Honestly, I believe a great deal of the outrage related to Vettel's penalty, is just Ferrari and "show" fans who are desperate to see anyone other than Mercedes win.

Not that, but my heart also hurts to see the man finishing 1st been stripped of his win. As a fan of racing i do not like to see it.

But my brain agrees with the penalty. Vettel made a mistake and only keeps his position by forcing Hamilton to brake. Although i am not sure he made the move deliberate, the penalty is fair and correct. Just hate to see it.

[Morteza]

[ispano6]

Honestly, I believe a great deal of the outrage related to Vettel's penalty, is just Ferrari and "show" fans who are desperate to see anyone other than Mercedes win.

Not that, but my heart also hurts to see the man finishing 1st been stripped of his win. As a fan of racing i do not like to see it.

But my brain agrees with the penalty. Vettel made a mistake and only keeps his position by forcing Hamilton to brake. Although i am not sure he made the move deliberate, the penalty is fair and correct. Just hate to see it.

Agreed, and forgive me if this was already considered or called out:
If Vettel acknowledged the move and ceded position to Hamilton that lap, would the time penalty still be in effect?
Had Vettel "served" the penalty by giving up his position, wouldn't it "clear" him of his earlier infraction? And if so, as Hamilton stated afterwards that he wanted and tried to win the right way, might Vettel still have had a chance to overtake Hamilton before the race's end? Or like most following cars would Vettel have suffered overheating issues? Hindsight is obviously 20/20 but I feel Ferrari had the pace down the straights to overpower the Mercedes with the tow+DRS and Mercedes could not.

[dans79]

]


Agreed, and forgive me if this was already considered or called out:
If Vettel acknowledged the move and ceded position to Hamilton that lap, would the time penalty still be in effect?
Had Vettel "served" the penalty by giving up his position, wouldn't it "clear" him of his earlier infraction? And if so, as Hamilton stated afterwards that he wanted and tried to win the right way, might Vettel still have had a chance to overtake Hamilton before the race's end? Or like most following cars would Vettel have suffered overheating issues? Hindsight is obviously 20/20 but I feel Ferrari had the pace down the straights to overpower the Mercedes with the tow+DRS and Mercedes could not.

usually, if a driver gains some type of advantage but then gives it away the stewards have a tendency to look the other way.

the Mercedes had superior pace, there's no way Lewis could have stayed that close to vettel for as long as long as he did, if the car didn't have the pace.

if Lewis had gotten past he most likely would have started to gap Vettel, because the Mercedes had superior race pace.

[cooken]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IA3ppfFRq4o

Jolyon should have skipped the F1 career and gone straight to this. Seems to be really well considered and thorough. The overlaid throttle input is rather telling...


Might I also applaud the fact we've gone through all this discussion with essentially no mod intervention or thread locking. Must be pushing a race thread record.

[dans79]

Might I also applaud the fact we've gone through all this discussion with essentially no mod intervention or thread locking. Must be a pushing a race thread record.

There's been a lot of intervention actually, it's just not as obvious as it's been in previous race threads.