2019 Renault F1 Team

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aran.vtec
aran.vtec
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Re: 2019 Renault F1 Team

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Mclarensenna wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 08:34
SmallSoldier wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 17:17
I don’t think the Renault is as bad as the results seem to imply... Their performance is thereabouts with the rest of the midfield and they have been really unlucky in some situations (i.e. Hulk at Germany with a podium on the cards).

The potential and the performance of their car isn’t horrible... Yes, they are not leading the midfield as everyone expected or they wished would be the case, but they aren’t at the bottom either.

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The car in race pace is about 2 seconds a lap slower than the top 3. Exactly the same as last year. They are getting lapped every single race without a safety car.

How can you say these are not terrible results?
Renault is here to win and fight for podiums which is what Cyril targeted 3 years ago. Not fight for 7th place crumbs 2 or 3 laps down on the leaders in their 4th year now.
They got over confident with last years results when they were a clear best of the rest.

they thought with redbull going to Honda they would jump to 3rd best team and with Ricardo they would luck a podium or two

but in reality ,
1.they wasted money on Ricardo when it could of been used on the car development.
2. Redbull stayed the same maybe even improved
3. Mclaren improved massively and jumped renault

Bill
Bill
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Re: 2019 Renault F1 Team

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Renault was not clear fourth team last year force India lost all their points and run out of money or else they would been ahead of them . Hass too but their drivers kept binning the car

zack!
zack!
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Re: 2019 Renault F1 Team

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SmallSoldier wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 02:59
I’m just referring to what has been posted in the news in regards to it... I don’t understand what your position is, so I’ll let be.
My position is that renault need to change something at RF1, and Prost nomination is not that change (in its actual form at least). Now the deviation from the goal is quite visible (they are 2 years late according to the plan, and going backward this half year), and time is ticking for renault (release of e-tech engine new technology world wide with massmarket cars). Summer break, is the good timing for an annoucement.
This is my position and my prediction. Sorry i wasn't clear.

Espresso
Espresso
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Re: 2019 Renault F1 Team

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SmallSoldier wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 18:39
zack! wrote:I don't understand what you want to explain. You think Renault will continue like this ? I bet for a change very soon, I don't know what, but hey have to do something.
If by a change you mean firing Cyril? I don’t think they will do that short term... Could it happen? Sure... But, I don’t see any signs that it will be the case.

With Prost now on a more prominent role, it really will depend in the relationship between the two of them... We aren’t privy to what goes inside the team and they might still believe in Cyril... It isn’t like if there are a lot of options out there to replace him with either.

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Cyril will not be fired unless you fire the board of directors of Renault SA or change the key share holders.
(Cyril got his position as Charles by using similar tools...influencal politics)

In the best case scenario Cyril will be promoted 'up and away' into the organisation. so his 'heir' can take the blame.
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SmallSoldier
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Re: 2019 Renault F1 Team

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Mclarensenna wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 17:17
I don’t think the Renault is as bad as the results seem to imply... Their performance is thereabouts with the rest of the midfield and they have been really unlucky in some situations (i.e. Hulk at Germany with a podium on the cards).

The potential and the performance of their car isn’t horrible... Yes, they are not leading the midfield as everyone expected or they wished would be the case, but they aren’t at the bottom either.

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The car in race pace is about 2 seconds a lap slower than the top 3. Exactly the same as last year. They are getting lapped every single race without a safety car.

How can you say these are not terrible results?
Renault is here to win and fight for podiums which is what Cyril targeted 3 years ago. Not fight for 7th place crumbs 2 or 3 laps down on the leaders in their 4th year now.
When you end up in middle of the midfield (or even on bottom of it) after qualifying, your pace is going to be compromised by the traffic around you... For example, what happened with Gasly in the last race, he got stuck behind the Sainz, Norris, Kimi train and he ended up lapping at their pace... Does that means that the Red Bull car has the same pace as the Mclaren or the Alfa? We all know that isn’t true.

They won’t be fighting for wins and podiums, the reality is that beyond the current issues with their car, they are not willing to spend the amount of money required to be fighting with the top 3, that’s really what is happening at this point.

And I’m not saying that their results are great or not terrible, I’m saying that the performance of their car isn’t as bad as their current results show, meaning that their car isn’t worst than STR’s and probably even faster than Mclaren’s in certain track layouts / conditions.


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Mclarensenna
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Re: 2019 Renault F1 Team

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SmallSoldier wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 16:00
Mclarensenna wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
06 Aug 2019, 17:17
I don’t think the Renault is as bad as the results seem to imply... Their performance is thereabouts with the rest of the midfield and they have been really unlucky in some situations (i.e. Hulk at Germany with a podium on the cards).

The potential and the performance of their car isn’t horrible... Yes, they are not leading the midfield as everyone expected or they wished would be the case, but they aren’t at the bottom either.

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The car in race pace is about 2 seconds a lap slower than the top 3. Exactly the same as last year. They are getting lapped every single race without a safety car.

How can you say these are not terrible results?
Renault is here to win and fight for podiums which is what Cyril targeted 3 years ago. Not fight for 7th place crumbs 2 or 3 laps down on the leaders in their 4th year now.

And I’m not saying that their results are great or not terrible,

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2 seconds off the race pace of the leading 6 cars is not terrible?

Zero improvement in the last 2 years in race pace while missing every single performance target to catch the leading 3 teams set by Cyril and the Renault board is not terrible?

Getting lapped every race without a safety car after 4 years now and a being 1 of only 3 "Full Works Teams" is not terrible?
Ayrton Senna: Pure driving, pure racing, that´s what makes me happy.

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
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Re: 2019 Renault F1 Team

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Mclarensenna wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 16:00
Mclarensenna wrote: The car in race pace is about 2 seconds a lap slower than the top 3. Exactly the same as last year. They are getting lapped every single race without a safety car.

How can you say these are not terrible results?
Renault is here to win and fight for podiums which is what Cyril targeted 3 years ago. Not fight for 7th place crumbs 2 or 3 laps down on the leaders in their 4th year now.

And I’m not saying that their results are great or not terrible,

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2 seconds off the race pace of the leading 6 cars is not terrible?

Zero improvement in the last 2 years in race pace while missing every single performance target to catch the leading 3 teams set by Cyril and the Renault board is not terrible?

Getting lapped every race without a safety car after 4 years now and a being 1 of only 3 "Full Works Teams" is not terrible?
I don’t think that there performance is terrible... You are free to rate it that way and I respect your opinion, but I don’t rate it that way.

Every team in the midfield is been lapped by the top 3 and the distance from that group to the rest is still huge and probably without a similar amount of investment as them might not be an achievable target to get into that fight.

With the exception of Mercedes, the same argument could be made about all other teams... Ferrari has the largest budget in F1 and still hasn’t been able to match them or surpass them (weren’t they 60 seconds from Mercedes in Hungary?)... Red Bull is probably the closest right now in performance, but also has one of the highest budgets in the grid.

Regarding your point that made “Zero improvement”, that’s not accurate... Actually, Renault has improved more in regards to 2018 than the likes of Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull... Their average improvement this year is higher and that’s even considering very bad qualifying performances in France and Austria (chart at the bottom).

Now, they are not meeting their own targets and it’s probably because they underestimated how difficult and costly achieving those targets were going to be.

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Mclarensenna
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Re: 2019 Renault F1 Team

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SmallSoldier wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 03:14
Mclarensenna wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
07 Aug 2019, 16:00



And I’m not saying that their results are great or not terrible,

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2 seconds off the race pace of the leading 6 cars is not terrible?

Zero improvement in the last 2 years in race pace while missing every single performance target to catch the leading 3 teams set by Cyril and the Renault board is not terrible?

Getting lapped every race without a safety car after 4 years now and a being 1 of only 3 "Full Works Teams" is not terrible?
I don’t think that there performance is terrible... You are free to rate it that way and I respect your opinion, but I don’t rate it that way.

Regarding your point that made “Zero improvement”, that’s not accurate... Actually, Renault has improved more in regards to 2018 than the likes of Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull... Their average improvement this year is higher and that’s even considering very bad qualifying performances in France and Austria (chart at the bottom).

Now, they are not meeting their own targets and it’s probably because they underestimated how difficult and costly achieving those targets were going to be.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201908 ... f754bd.jpg


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1...Yes i rate being lapped almost every race by the top 3 teams terrible.
You keep insisting it is not terrible.
What exactly would be terrible then in your eyes? Ending up 3 laps behind the top 3 teams 6 seconds a lap slower in race pace being a mobile chicane?

2. Yes my statement about them making no improvement in race pace is 100% accurate as Renault get lapped almost every race without a safety car as their car in "race pace" is about 2 seconds a lap slower, same as it was last year. You pasted qualifying time gaps (mainly due to the new engine qualifying modes they have this year), then proceeded to say my 2 second race pace gap was "not accurate"
Nice try Smallsoldier
Ayrton Senna: Pure driving, pure racing, that´s what makes me happy.

Espresso
Espresso
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Joined: 13 Dec 2017, 15:03

Re: 2019 Renault F1 Team

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Mclarensenna wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 06:43
SmallSoldier wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 03:14
Mclarensenna wrote:
2 seconds off the race pace of the leading 6 cars is not terrible?

Zero improvement in the last 2 years in race pace while missing every single performance target to catch the leading 3 teams set by Cyril and the Renault board is not terrible?

Getting lapped every race without a safety car after 4 years now and a being 1 of only 3 "Full Works Teams" is not terrible?
I don’t think that there performance is terrible... You are free to rate it that way and I respect your opinion, but I don’t rate it that way.

Regarding your point that made “Zero improvement”, that’s not accurate... Actually, Renault has improved more in regards to 2018 than the likes of Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull... Their average improvement this year is higher and that’s even considering very bad qualifying performances in France and Austria (chart at the bottom).

Now, they are not meeting their own targets and it’s probably because they underestimated how difficult and costly achieving those targets were going to be.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201908 ... f754bd.jpg


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1...Yes i rate being lapped almost every race by the top 3 teams terrible.
You keep insisting it is not terrible.
What exactly would be terrible then in your eyes? Ending up 3 laps behind the top 3 teams 6 seconds a lap slower in race pace being a mobile chicane?

2. Yes my statement about them making no improvement in race pace is 100% accurate as Renault get lapped almost every race without a safety car as their car in "race pace" is about 2 seconds a lap slower, same as it was last year. You pasted qualifying time gaps (mainly due to the new engine qualifying modes they have this year), then proceeded to say my 2 second race pace gap was "not accurate"
Nice try Smallsoldier
My thoughts also and to add to that:
It's not about budget it's about plain stupidity/stubbornness.
A Donkey Doesn't Hit The Same Rock Twice, Renault on the other hand keep redesigning and rebuilding a chassis on the same flawed concept. They keep hitting the rock every year....

Let's instead of finding excuses find a few reasons why in fact they should be better:
- Force India has proven a limited budget can build a very good chassis when applied with sense.
- Red Bull has proven you can win a race with a Renault engine when it doesn't blow up.
- McLaren has proven, and it is only in the beginning of the rebuilding phase, how to turnaround and build a chassis (base at the beginning of its evolution) within a year.
- Williams has proven within a half season how to 'fix' a flawed design with very limited budget.

Simply said, with the budget available to Renault, it is just plain terrible how they perform.
Admitting it is the first step to rebuilding. McLaren has showed how to do it.

In reality I don't see and expect any change. just a regular PR boast. Like 'the engine can surpass 1000bHp' (in very certain conditions...)
Meanwhile refraining from the fact they've dropped to be the 4th best engine on the grid (or the worst engine on the grid....) and I foresee a gloomy future for Ricciardo.
But I'm happy it landed Sainz at McLaren!
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JordanMugen
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Joined: 17 Oct 2018, 13:36

Re: 2019 Renault F1 Team

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SmallSoldier wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 03:14
Regarding your point that made “Zero improvement”, that’s not accurate... Actually, Renault has improved more in regards to 2018 than the likes of Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull...
Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull improved less because their cars are very good and had less room for improvement. Renault, however, had more room for improvement but have been unable to do so.

Renault's rivals are McLaren, Alfa Romeo and Toro Rosso, and Renault's improvement compared to their rivals is much less and this discrepancy is plainly unacceptable. :wink:

To make up for it, Renault have no choice but to improve at a rate greater than the rate that McLaren, Alfa Romeo and Toro Rosso improve! This may involve a large development push, for which funds and lots of them must be approved ASAP since Renault intend to fight for the championship in 2021!!

To be a top team in F1, it must be treated like the moon mission: failure is not an option, cost is no object. Other approaches are not effective! :wink:

digitalrurouni
digitalrurouni
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Re: 2019 Renault F1 Team

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From the sound of what Hulkenberg has been saying, Renault really doesn't know what's wrong with the car other than it needs to be improved everywhere. When they first unveiled the car at the beginning of the season I just thought it looked exactly like their last year's car. Nothing that visually to me as a layman that indicated oh wow this car is gonna go well this year.

All they are doing is making noise about their supposed 1000 hp benchmark or whatever. Renault needs to find something huge. I just don't think they have the talent. Funds notwithstanding.

SmallSoldier
SmallSoldier
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Re: 2019 Renault F1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 03:14
Regarding your point that made “Zero improvement”, that’s not accurate... Actually, Renault has improved more in regards to 2018 than the likes of Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull...
Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull improved less because their cars are very good and had less room for improvement. Renault, however, had more room for improvement but have been unable to do so.

Renault's rivals are McLaren, Alfa Romeo and Toro Rosso, and Renault's improvement compared to their rivals is much less and this discrepancy is plainly unacceptable. :wink:

To make up for it, Renault have no choice but to improve at a rate greater than the rate that McLaren, Alfa Romeo and Toro Rosso improve! This may involve a large development push, for which funds and lots of them must be approved ASAP since Renault intend to fight for the championship in 2021!!

To be a top team in F1, it must be treated like the moon mission: failure is not an option, cost is no object. Other approaches are not effective! :wink:
Definitely... Although, the improvements by the likes of Alfa and STR for example are probably better due to the fact that they started slow on the previous season while Renault was more competitive at the beginning of the season compared to them.

In Mclaren’s case, I would actually expect their improvement against previous season to look even better in the second half since that’s when they really struggled in qualifying.

I absolutely agree that if Renault wants to fight with the top 3, they will need to make an investment similar to the ones in that category... But with an impending budget cap, I don’t think that they will increase their budget dramatically for just 2020 and add a lot of headcount to their operations that they will end up letting go.


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Neno
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Re: 2019 Renault F1 Team

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Biggest problem is 2020 doesnt matter in any shape or form. Regardless what result they acomplish in 2020 it wont have anything in common with 2021. We have big regulation changes, fixed wheebase, ground effect, tires etc. Putting any money into a next year is just bad idea. Wwhat they should be doing is fixing their aero department. Either people who working in factory or wind tunnel. Whatever is creating problems in understanding how F1 car works on track so they can print updates and those updates will work. Because building 2021 car with those problems where we have regulations already in place for now 2 years is simply bad idea.

If you can't understand now why your car is now POS, then how can you build 2021 car and expect anything good coming out? And that's a part good organization would be doing.

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Blackout
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Re: 2019 Renault F1 Team

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The Mclaren Renault comparison is interesting in many ways.
Both teams had a very similar aero problem in 2018 but one team built a whole new car in 2019 while the other built the same car and grafted a superficial fake copy of the fancy raised Ferrari017 sidepods onto it.
One team increased the distance between the front wheels and the sidepods and used the raised Ferreri style sidepods to puch them beackward further to put them in a cleaner airflow, while the other team didnt puch them at all. The worst part is that every team who copied them since 2018 did that, but if you look closely Renault did not.
And that's not the only reason they look like fake and half assed copies of the Ferrari pods. If you look closely, only the first 10cm are Ferrari-like but the rest are classic sidepods with fat sides and underside...

Thats one of the 2000 reasons the aero developpement at Enstone looks excessively cautious, very timorous and often half-assed. And it seems it was a deliberate descision, remember what abisteboul said before the start of the season.
"We know that Enstone, things will take time. F1, by definition, is evolutionary and iterative, meaning that when you build a car, you take the car of the previous year and improve it on the basis of the weaknesses you could identify. on track.
This reality is that we will put a little time, a few seasons, to level the very best.
We are in a philosophy of wanting to control what we do using solutions a little conventional because we want to master things, take them step by step.
There are teams that are more radical in their choices, but we know it.
These are guidelines that can pay but can also burn your wings.
We are on an extremely constructed approach."

The aerodynamic problem Renault has might be simply inherent to the design they are using since 2018 (or even 2017) and to get rid of it they might simply have to change that design, like Mclaren did; change the turning vanes under the nose (which barely change on the Enstons cars), the T-tray and bargeboards, deflectors, sidepods etc. Abiteboul kinda aknowleged that lately.

Another typical half assed copiage by Enstone: the raised front whishbones: Every team on the grid who copied the STR-Merc raised top whishbone to clear the way underneath them has aligned the steering rod with one of the whishbones to have the cleanest possible airflow there. But Renault is the only team to retain the steering in the same place as 2018.  :)
 
The siepod underside is well visible here but the pic is misleading ragrding the sidepod longitudinal position because of the different angles, proportions etc. The intakes barely change position actually.
 
The step by step approach has some benefits, but you're too slow Enstone, and other teams discover and learn new things faster than you.
And if your concept is flawed, you carry over the flaws in the next season.
 
Image
Last edited by Blackout on 09 Aug 2019, 12:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Blackout
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Re: 2019 Renault F1 Team

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So problem number one is the ridiculous lack of chassis developpement during the winter and during the season. 
You cant have a completely different cake and a far better one, using the same recipe and the same ingredients.
 
Problem number two is that the car does not like hot tempretatures. The tires and the aerodynamics suffer a lot from it. So it's not track related, it's temp related.
In Silverstone which was only 2-3 gp ago the car worked very well. 
 
The lack of speed in medium speed corners is the least of their problems I would say. In Silverstone they were fast. The heat exacerbates the car's weaknesses. The drivers sometimes minimise the lack of grip in those types of corners. They can live with it... when the track is not hot...

This team has still a huge room for improvement. Despite all this immobilism, they beat Mclaren a couple of gp ago and qualified only a second behind pole position with this car... but in slightly colder conditions.

Hopfully they find a solution for the high temps first... and make some efforts on the chassis side in 2020... They definitely dont lack ressources compared to RP, STR or Alfa. And in 2010 they didnt have unlimitd ressources but their developpemnt rate was incredible compared to this, same for 2012 and 2013...

What they lack is ambition, courage, new blood. As Abiteboul said, their approach is too cautious and as Budkowski noted, many engineers at Enstone must change their old habits a bit...