Silly Season 2018/2019

[izzy]

Yeah, they are not going to pair Lewis and Max, that would be Prost vs Senna part 2 (or maybe they suprise us and they are suprisingly friendly). From a fan perspective however it would be awesome.

I think you are unfair regarding Button, he beat a prime Lewis over a whole year, something only Rosberg (but due to reliability) did. If Button had the luck of him being in the seat instead of Bottas at that age he maybe would have had 1 or even 2 additional WDC's.

They might get on, but even best case they'd take points off each other all year wouldn't they. It would be TOOOOOOO exciting tho

Jenson was generally .15s behind Lewis kinda thing. He didn't beat Lewis on pace, just in the damp he was level. He won his WDC in 7 races with the best car then tightened up at his home race and never got it back the rest of the year. In 2011 he was lucky and his teammate was unlucky, not to mention the freaking unmentionable stewards. I see him and Valtteri as quite similar

[i70q7m7ghw]

I'm sorry but that's just borderline fanatic hypberbole. Rosberg performed well at the start of 2016 and then made the most of Hamilton's bad luck (reliability) to stroke the WDC home. Button finished 2nd the 2011 while Hamilton finished 5th, 43 points behind. Both drivers were very much number 1 those years.

don't get personal it doesn't help your case, stick to the evidence then we can chat about F1. Rosberg had half his wins and 40 points from Lewis' car problems and won by 5 points. Jenson was the luckiest guy in the history of F1, like in Canada he took out BOTH his rivals, including Lewis, and won, in Spa Lewis was taken out, in Brazil he was taken out of the lead, etc etc. They were both No2 drivers on pace who were good enough to be there and get lucky ONE year. Rosberg was a cheat and despicable, Jenson was a great guy and a great driver and a perfect teammate, like Valtteri, and that's how Lewis gets on with both of them. Mercedes learned how much difference that makes, that's what they risk if they take Esteban.

Nonsense, I've heard enough.

[Pyrone89]

well none of them would call themselves a No2, and if they're made to feel like the No2, like Massa, or Bottas last year, their performance falls off massively. But from the team's point of view there mostly is a No1/No2 and Valtteri is that person isn't he? Niki used to call Lewis 'Lewis' and Valtteri 'Bottas' !

But a No2 is really valuable to a team, I mean look at Red Bull, because mostly F1 drivers get into F1 by winning everything and they don't have the temperament to get beaten weekend after weekend. Rosberg was a No2 on pace and he couldn't take it and cheated. Jenson was the greatest No2 ever, being a nice, generous person and instinctively fair. Valtteri is like Jenson and if he'd been in the Brawn in 2009 he'd have been a wdc too.

But yes Ocon would be a risk, as in he might take Lewis out at T1 and I agree Renault is the place for him. He must be at least a bit faster than Valtteri in the sim or he wouldn't even be on their radar would he, but would he be such a good fit in the team? I don't think so and I don't see him as a Lewis replacement, personally. Charles might be, let's see, otherwise there is only Max, after Lewis.

I'm sorry but that's just borderline fanatic hypberbole. Rosberg performed well at the start of 2016 and then made the most of Hamilton's bad luck (reliability) to stroke the WDC home. Button finished 2nd the 2011 while Hamilton finished 5th, 43 points behind. Both drivers were very much number 1 those years.

Hamilton gained four WDC for the same reason Rosberg gained one. Bottas has GP victories for the same reason. They all have pole positions and fastest laps for that same reason. The Mercedes F1 program.

Had Alonso, Button, Vettel, Ricciardo, Raikkonen, Verstappen, or LeClerc, been driving alongside Hamilton 2014-2019, the delusional lore of Hamilton of recent years would likely not have arisen.

Vettel won 2010-2013 because he stepped out of a Toro Rosso and into a Red Bull. Had someone other than Webber been alongside Vettel, would Vettel still have four WDC?

Mercedes were best prepared when the 2014 rules changes arrived. This in turn benefitted the Mercedes drivers.

Agreed, but I think RAI should not be in that list.

People have a hard time separating car from driver, which is understandable but gets annoying when discussing which driver is the best and people keep saying a certain driver is the GOAT based on his stats gotten when driving an ultra dominant car. You could argue the same applies for Schumacher but there is a big distinction: Schumacher had a dominant car in 2 or 3 (if you count 2001 as dominant) out of his 7 WDC's and was challenging for the title every year between 1994 and 2004 sometimes in cars quite some pace away of the leading McLaren or Williams. On the other hand Hamilton has 4 (if you count 2018 not as a dominant car) or 5 out of the 6 (yes, 2019 is done) WDC's in a truly dominant car, the likes of which has only been seen before in 1992 or 1988. Not to mention assessing drivers we have never seen drive who drove in a much less data driven age (driver skill mattered way more) such as Fangio, Clark, Stewart etc. But when you bring that up you tend to get pitchfork brigades going after you. The same applies for Vettel. I see him not as in the same league as Prost or Senna which he is based on stats. For a better view you might take Lewis stats before his Mercedes days and extrapolate as if Merc's dominance hadnt happened.

Now back on-topic:
Teams are probably already busy with the 2021 driver line-ups in mind, which is why you might see driver choices that may not seem optimal for 2020 but are made with the longer term future in mind. Think of Ocon getting in instead of Bottas, Albon getting the RB drive instead of Kvyat etc. The other seats that I feel will change is both Haas seats. Others will probably stay the same I feel unless some big domino's suddenly start moving.

[izzy]

Nonsense, I've heard enough.

yes don't debate F1 with me, is the solution. I mean it's perfectly cool to disagree, but on a forum like this you have to explain yourself

[trinidefender]

I'll take a wild shot in the dark. This is HIGHLY unlikely to happen but in a way it can make sense for all parties involved.

- Ocon goes to Merc replacing Bottas
- Bottas moves to Red Bull replacing Gasly on a 1 year deal with a possible extension
- Gasly......I don't know what to do with him. He's a fast driver but for some reason can't gel with the car and/or team.

- The reason that I think this works is that it seems Toto and many people in the know rate Ocon very highly...and yes, before someone jumps down my throat to say he's overrated or whatever else, remember we aren't the ones making the decision. Clearly the people making the decisions rate him highly.
- it works for Bottas because it allows him a fresh start and another chance to prove that he is quick enough to be a solid no. 2 for max as a solid points scorer for RBR, something they are lacking currently. Then if it doesn't work and Bottas gets shown up he can either quit F1 with dignity or move to another team after and become a Kimi.
- it works for RBR because as is obvious, at present RBR is lacking a solid points scoring no. 2 driver. RBR could finish 2nd in the constructors championship his year if their second driver was delivering. It would seem unwise for Red Bull to promote Albon yet as he is still very green. As far as Kvayat, he seems to be having a good year but it appears that Red Bull still don't fully trust him. Then when Albon gets more experience, assuming that he is still performing, he can get Bottas seat either for 2021 or 2022.
- well I guess this doesn't really work for Gasly....sorry mate....

Again, this is highly unlikely and a huge shot in the dark. One of the reasons why I don't think it would happen, even though it seems to makes sense to me, is that this isn't how Red Bull does business. They seem to like to promote junior drivers through the ranks however they have destroyed enough careers by promoting people too early that they don't seem to have anyone else left. Also it would only work like this if my assumptions about Bottas are correct...which could very well be total hogwash.

Thoughts?

[GPR-A]

Had Alonso, Button, Vettel, Ricciardo, Raikkonen, Verstappen, or LeClerc, been driving alongside Hamilton 2014-2019, the delusional lore of Hamilton of recent years would likely not have arisen.

I am sure if Hamilton would have beaten Senna in that period, people would still say this. This would go on.

Vettel won 2010-2013 because he stepped out of a Toro Rosso and into a Red Bull. Had someone other than Webber been alongside Vettel, would Vettel still have four WDC?

Absolutely, Yes. I know neither I, nor you can prove it right or wrong.

Mercedes were best prepared when the 2014 rules changes arrived. This in turn benefitted the Mercedes drivers.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, it makes everyone a genius. By December 2013, I did not hear or read a single soul on this planet that said, Mercedes is best prepared for 2014 changes! In the hindsight, you can spin any story based on the concluded circumstances.

This is what the genius soothsayers said when Lewis signed with Mercedes.

https://thejudge13.com/2012/09/28/lewis ... as-pushed/

Joe Saward, much respected long standing F1 writer says in his blog, “it will be a leap of great faith [Lewis has] in the German-owned operation, but may be a decision that the British youngster will one day regret”.

[turbof1]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, it makes everyone a genius. By December 2013, I did not hear or read a single soul on this planet that said, Mercedes is best prepared for 2014 changes! In the hindsight, you can spin any story based on the concluded circumstances.

I know from a couple of sources Mercedes was actually fully expecting taking the wdc and wcc titles in 2014 in the years before. They were convinced of this due the manpower (1000 employees for the development of the power unit alone!) and resources poured into it. They did not expect that kind of level of dominance though (a big part due to the Ferrari and Renault PUs being that far behind). But Mercedes was expecting to take the titles.

[Just_a_fan]

[ For a better view you might take Lewis stats before his Mercedes days and extrapolate as if Merc's dominance hadnt happened.

Ok, deal. He'd have had over 40 wins based on his 21 in 5 seasons with McLaren. That's rubbish, as I'm sure you'd agree.

It's funny how much time you put in to saying how Hamilton is only good because he's got a good car. To play your game, how many titles would Schumacher have won if Senna hadn't died in 94? Would he have ended up at Ferrari with their dominant early 2000s cars?

Anyway I'll leave a quote by a chap held in high regard by many:

"He was able to win with a dominant car, with a good car like 2010 or 2012, or with bad cars like 2009 and 2011. Not all the champions can say that"
—Fernando Alonso, speaking of Hamilton in 2017

No one wins titles in cars that aren't the best or close to the best. It's just the way of the sport. Continuing to bang your anti-Hamilton drum in the way you do makes you look a little silly because of this. But feel free to carry on if you wish.

[GPR-A]

It's funny how much time you put in to saying how Hamilton is only good because he's got a good car. To play your game, how many titles would Schumacher have won if Senna hadn't died in 94? Would he have ended up at Ferrari with their dominant early 2000s cars?

You would agree that, Senna would have never gone to Ferrari. He left McLaren for the fact that, McLaren couldn't give him fastest car in 1992 and 1993 (just 2 years!), despite having won 3 championships in that team. Prost and Mansell had resigned from Ferrari as they couldn't do much there. Senna wouldn't have gone there for sure. So Michael was the only option that Ferrari would have left with on that grid! Ferrari would have definitely tried him even if Senna was alive. So, Michael would have certainly driven those 2000s cars.

Even if Michael wouldn't have gone to Ferrari, he would have won another championship with Benetton in 1996. I am not saying this, Brawn himself had admitted that, when Michael left Benetton in 1996, the car was still good for another championship in Michael's hands as Brawn was still in-charge at Benetton in 1996. Would he have beaten Senna in 1996 while driving that Benetton, when that year's Williams was a genuine championship winner? Nobody knows, 36 Years old Senna Vs 26 Years old Michael.

[NathanOlder]

It's funny how much time you put in to saying how Hamilton is only good because he's got a good car. To play your game, how many titles would Schumacher have won if Senna hadn't died in 94? Would he have ended up at Ferrari with their dominant early 2000s cars?

You would agree that, Senna would have never gone to Ferrari. He left McLaren for the fact that, McLaren couldn't give him fastest car in 1992 and 1993 (just 2 years!), despite having won 3 championships in that team. Prost and Mansell had resigned from Ferrari as they couldn't do much there. Senna wouldn't have gone there for sure. So Michael was the only option that Ferrari would have left with on that grid! Ferrari would have definitely tried him even if Senna was alive. So, Michael would have certainly driven those 2000s cars.

Even if Michael wouldn't have gone to Ferrari, he would have won another championship with Benetton in 1996. I am not saying this, Brawn himself had admitted that, when Michael left Benetton in 1996, the car was still good for another championship in Michael's hands as Brawn was still in-charge at Benetton in 1996. Would he have beaten Senna in 1996 while driving that Benetton, when that year's Williams was a genuine championship winner? Nobody knows, 36 Years old Senna Vs 26 Years old Michael.

Well a 36yrs old in that Williams scored more than DOUBLE the points of any Benetton driver that year,

So if Senna and Schumacher were in those 2 cars, Its very clear Senna would have come out on top.

[Capharol]

It's funny how much time you put in to saying how Hamilton is only good because he's got a good car. To play your game, how many titles would Schumacher have won if Senna hadn't died in 94? Would he have ended up at Ferrari with their dominant early 2000s cars?

You would agree that, Senna would have never gone to Ferrari. He left McLaren for the fact that, McLaren couldn't give him fastest car in 1992 and 1993 (just 2 years!), despite having won 3 championships in that team. Prost and Mansell had resigned from Ferrari as they couldn't do much there. Senna wouldn't have gone there for sure. So Michael was the only option that Ferrari would have left with on that grid! Ferrari would have definitely tried him even if Senna was alive. So, Michael would have certainly driven those 2000s cars.

Even if Michael wouldn't have gone to Ferrari, he would have won another championship with Benetton in 1996. I am not saying this, Brawn himself had admitted that, when Michael left Benetton in 1996, the car was still good for another championship in Michael's hands as Brawn was still in-charge at Benetton in 1996. Would he have beaten Senna in 1996 while driving that Benetton, when that year's Williams was a genuine championship winner? Nobody knows, 36 Years old Senna Vs 26 Years old Michael.

Well a 36yrs old in that Williams scored more than DOUBLE the points of any Benetton driver that year,

So if Senna and Schumacher were in those 2 cars, Its very clear Senna would have come out on top.

and now explain to me what this has to do with the Topic?

[Pyrone89]

The market is more about which cork pops in 2021. Will LH go to Ferrari to show he can (still) win without a dominant Merc, will Vettel retire, is Merc board really concerned with having a German, will RB and Honda make enough inroads and will they start hiring from outside their program?

[GPR-A]

It's funny how much time you put in to saying how Hamilton is only good because he's got a good car. To play your game, how many titles would Schumacher have won if Senna hadn't died in 94? Would he have ended up at Ferrari with their dominant early 2000s cars?

You would agree that, Senna would have never gone to Ferrari. He left McLaren for the fact that, McLaren couldn't give him fastest car in 1992 and 1993 (just 2 years!), despite having won 3 championships in that team. Prost and Mansell had resigned from Ferrari as they couldn't do much there. Senna wouldn't have gone there for sure. So Michael was the only option that Ferrari would have left with on that grid! Ferrari would have definitely tried him even if Senna was alive. So, Michael would have certainly driven those 2000s cars.

Even if Michael wouldn't have gone to Ferrari, he would have won another championship with Benetton in 1996. I am not saying this, Brawn himself had admitted that, when Michael left Benetton in 1996, the car was still good for another championship in Michael's hands as Brawn was still in-charge at Benetton in 1996. Would he have beaten Senna in 1996 while driving that Benetton, when that year's Williams was a genuine championship winner? Nobody knows, 36 Years old Senna Vs 26 Years old Michael.

Well a 36yrs old in that Williams scored more than DOUBLE the points of any Benetton driver that year,

So if Senna and Schumacher were in those 2 cars, Its very clear Senna would have come out on top.

That same Senna was struggling in 1994 to beat that same Michael. So, it's not a given, but may be for you, which is perfectly OK. Damon was driving for Williams in 1994 and 1995 too!

[Pyrone89]

Albon has been promoted to Red Bull Racing https://twitter.com/redbullracing/statu ... 56224?s=21

[tpeman]

Albon has been promoted to Red Bull Racing https://twitter.com/redbullracing/statu ... 56224?s=21

Good for him and the team! Heartbroken for Gasly, but at least his seat in Torro Rosso seems safe. I think they did the right choice. I believe Albon will be perfectly fine with being the supporting driver to Max, and Kvyat in my opinion is the best pick for Ferrari in case Vettel retires (Kimi is too old now and Giovinazzi doesn't seem to be fast enough for now, Mick Schumacher will have at least one more season in F2 before he steps up to Alfa Romeo). If Vettel stays, another options for Kvyat are Renault (which isn't gonna be a bad place to be come 2021) or Haas.