Silly Season 2020/2021 (starting with silliness in 2019)

[izzy]

Its probably more a car(designer) thing than a driver thing. The design team get it matching the figures that give the right numbers on the screen and its down to the driver to get it around in the time they estimate.

If a driver has been driving a car with a different 'seat of the pants' feel, say a planted car, and he gets into a jittery car he will not be comfortable when it gives the same feed back the other one did just when it was going to let go catastrophically, even if he knows this one will be far less abrupt. and the longer he was driving the other car the more it will take for him to 'get it' I can only think to compare it the first time you drive a 4x4 quickly after you have always driven rear wheel drive only.

I think they interact, so yes the engineers design the car by the numbers as you say, and then they develop it and do the setups with feedback from the drivers. And they all want a neutral car that goes where they point it at both ends, at every track all race long, but they can't have that so they have to settle for some dullness or sharpness at various stages. There are different ways to drive the cars too, like Lewis steers with the back end more than Valtteri, and differences at different stages of each corner.

And now with Max I feel he can manage more time with a sharp car and that is faster than the other way round. Red Bull aren't talking about it being a difficult car any more, it suits Max fine, but it still didn't suit Pierre. And some of this, it seems to me, has to be about physiological attributes like sense of balance and proprioceptive muscle control, that they can't train beyond a certain point they just have what they've got.

So these are the points i'm joining up to think it wouldn't work for Seb at Red Bull any more, and what I'm a bit anxious about for Alex - whether physically he is that special. He might be of course, i can't wait to see anyway.

[Jolle]

Its probably more a car(designer) thing than a driver thing. The design team get it matching the figures that give the right numbers on the screen and its down to the driver to get it around in the time they estimate.

If a driver has been driving a car with a different 'seat of the pants' feel, say a planted car, and he gets into a jittery car he will not be comfortable when it gives the same feed back the other one did just when it was going to let go catastrophically, even if he knows this one will be far less abrupt. and the longer he was driving the other car the more it will take for him to 'get it' I can only think to compare it the first time you drive a 4x4 quickly after you have always driven rear wheel drive only.

I think they interact, so yes the engineers design the car by the numbers as you say, and then they develop it and do the setups with feedback from the drivers. And they all want a neutral car that goes where they point it at both ends, at every track all race long, but they can't have that so they have to settle for some dullness or sharpness at various stages. There are different ways to drive the cars too, like Lewis steers with the back end more than Valtteri, and differences at different stages of each corner.

And now with Max I feel he can manage more time with a sharp car and that is faster than the other way round. Red Bull aren't talking about it being a difficult car any more, it suits Max fine, but it still didn't suit Pierre. And some of this, it seems to me, has to be about physiological attributes like sense of balance and proprioceptive muscle control, that they can't train beyond a certain point they just have what they've got.

So these are the points i'm joining up to think it wouldn't work for Seb at Red Bull any more, and what I'm a bit anxious about for Alex - whether physically he is that special. He might be of course, i can't wait to see anyway.

I wonder how much is balance if the car and how much confidence from the drivers (and how they “feel” the feedback from the car. Most of the design happens without the drivers involvement and the raceteam gets the new car during winter testing to find out how it responds on track and with the tires. The changes in driving style with a well balanced car are more to do with tiny setup changes then the whole design. Cars with unusual good or bad characteristics are the exceptions of course. The blown diffuser from Redbull on the good, and the pull rod front suspension from the ‘14 Ferrari the bad come to mind.

We’ve come a long way since the drivers come in the pit telling the engineers what to change, it’s probably much more the other way round, engineers telling the driver where there is loss and to be gained.

The feedback you want from a car is difficult to change. Remember Kimi and Lotus for instance. He didn’t get his feedback from the steering so it was pointless for him to drive.

One of the trades of a all round good driver is this flexibility to take different inputs from a car to drive it fast, to understand the car. Some drivers do, some drivers find a few races or a few year with a car they like and suddenly it’s gone....
usually drivers who can take care of their tires are quite flexible.

Gasly and Kvyat seems not to be that flexible, while someone like Perez always seems to find a way to feel and understand his car.

[UlleGulle]

According to Swedish Viasat Motor, which is very close to his manager, Ericsson will drive for Alfa at Spa.

[Manoah2u]

Ok i'll say it out.

2020:

Mercedes:
Hamilton
Ricciardo

Ferrari
LeClerc
Vettel

RedBull
Verstappen
Albon

Renault
Bottas
Ocon

Mclaren
Sainz
Norris

Williams
Latifi
Russell

Toro Rosso
Kvyat
Japanese driver

Alfa Romeo Sauber
Raikkonen
Kubica

Racing Point
Perez
Stroll

Haas
Magnussen
Fittipaldi

And for 2021:

Ferrari
Hamilton
Leclerc

Mercedes
Ricciardo
Vettel

Alfa Romeo
Raikkonen
Schumacher

There, i've thrown in an absolute bomb.

[izzy]

I wonder how much is balance if the car and how much confidence from the drivers (and how they “feel” the feedback from the car. Most of the design happens without the drivers involvement and the raceteam gets the new car during winter testing to find out how it responds on track and with the tires. The changes in driving style with a well balanced car are more to do with tiny setup changes then the whole design. Cars with unusual good or bad characteristics are the exceptions of course. The blown diffuser from Redbull on the good, and the pull rod front suspension from the ‘14 Ferrari the bad come to mind.

We’ve come a long way since the drivers come in the pit telling the engineers what to change, it’s probably much more the other way round, engineers telling the driver where there is loss and to be gained.

The feedback you want from a car is difficult to change. Remember Kimi and Lotus for instance. He didn’t get his feedback from the steering so it was pointless for him to drive.

One of the trades of a all round good driver is this flexibility to take different inputs from a car to drive it fast, to understand the car. Some drivers do, some drivers find a few races or a few year with a car they like and suddenly it’s gone....
usually drivers who can take care of their tires are quite flexible.

Gasly and Kvyat seems not to be that flexible, while someone like Perez always seems to find a way to feel and understand his car.

yes there's an interview with Eddie Irvine where he says Michael was hopeless at guiding setup for anyone else because he could drive anything. And the teams still ask the drivers about front wing changes at pitstops don't they, even though you'd think they could tell what's wanted from the load data, and as you say the engineers are often telling the drivers where they can pick up time, minimum speed or whatever.

But where i'm coming from is that when a team has a driver of that MS type calibre, they can design the car accordingly. They can have a bigger peak downforce, for example, if they don't have to worry quite so much about its consistency and the centre of pressure moving around. Because some drivers just have better muscle speed and control than others, and sense of balance, like with Lewis I can't think of a time he's over-corrected and I think Max is the same, and that frees up the engineers to make a faster car in certain ways BUT for the more normal teammate it's a bit of a nightmare to drive near the limit.

[Wouter]

Ok i'll say it out.

2020:

Toro Rosso
Kvyat
Japanese driver

Alfa Romeo Sauber
Raikkonen
Kubica

Haas
Magnussen
Fittipaldi

And for 2021: ..........

There, i've thrown in an absolute bomb.

Yes, you did!

I think 2021 is to soon, but 2020 I almost agree except:

STR Gasly and a Japanese driver.

Haas Kvyat/Magnussen and Hulkenberg

Alpha Kimi and Kvyat/Magnussen

No Fittipaldi and Kubica in 2020 on the grid.

[DChemTech]

Ok i'll say it out.

Long list

There, i've thrown in an absolute bomb.

The bomb being Kubica being on the grid in 2020? Much as I like the story, I don't expect that to happen.

[raymondu999]

Bottas has been confirmed for Merc in 2020

[dren]

According to Swedish Viasat Motor, which is very close to his manager, Ericsson will drive for Alfa at Spa.

He's reserve. Gio and Raikkonen are driving.

[DChemTech]

Bottas has been confirmed for Merc in 2020

Good decision, not unexpected. Now to wait for the announcement of Ocon at Renault, and to see where Hulkenberg will go. My money is still on Haas there, and Grosjean can go to the kitchen - spinning works a lot better with a blender than a car.

[Capharol]

what i don't understand is why most ppl think Ricciardo will go to Ferrari....

this would mean he plays second fiddle there behind Leclerc, who will be they're designated #1 driver for 2020, and yes i know they did say that yet but anybody who believes otherwise seems to have forgotten how F1-Teams works, no team would say driver xyz is they're 2nd driver (or how Toto said "wingman"), that would mark a driver as such for the rest of his career.....but if Ricciardo would be happy to play 2nd driver at Ferrari he could have stayed at RB

[UlleGulle]

According to Swedish Viasat Motor, which is very close to his manager, Ericsson will drive for Alfa at Spa.

He's reserve. Gio and Raikkonen are driving.

Yeah, that surfaced later. It was just a spin on him being stood over in a Indycar race.

[Big Tea]

I wonder how much is balance if the car and how much confidence from the drivers (and how they “feel” the feedback from the car. Most of the design happens without the drivers involvement and the raceteam gets the new car during winter testing to find out how it responds on track and with the tires. The changes in driving style with a well balanced car are more to do with tiny setup changes then the whole design. Cars with unusual good or bad characteristics are the exceptions of course. The blown diffuser from Redbull on the good, and the pull rod front suspension from the ‘14 Ferrari the bad come to mind.

We’ve come a long way since the drivers come in the pit telling the engineers what to change, it’s probably much more the other way round, engineers telling the driver where there is loss and to be gained.

The feedback you want from a car is difficult to change. Remember Kimi and Lotus for instance. He didn’t get his feedback from the steering so it was pointless for him to drive.

One of the trades of a all round good driver is this flexibility to take different inputs from a car to drive it fast, to understand the car. Some drivers do, some drivers find a few races or a few year with a car they like and suddenly it’s gone....
usually drivers who can take care of their tires are quite flexible.

Gasly and Kvyat seems not to be that flexible, while someone like Perez always seems to find a way to feel and understand his car.

yes there's an interview with Eddie Irvine where he says Michael was hopeless at guiding setup for anyone else because he could drive anything. And the teams still ask the drivers about front wing changes at pitstops don't they, even though you'd think they could tell what's wanted from the load data, and as you say the engineers are often telling the drivers where they can pick up time, minimum speed or whatever.

But where i'm coming from is that when a team has a driver of that MS type calibre, they can design the car accordingly. They can have a bigger peak downforce, for example, if they don't have to worry quite so much about its consistency and the centre of pressure moving around. Because some drivers just have better muscle speed and control than others, and sense of balance, like with Lewis I can't think of a time he's over-corrected and I think Max is the same, and that frees up the engineers to make a faster car in certain ways BUT for the more normal teammate it's a bit of a nightmare to drive near the limit.

Yes it is a skill, but there is more to it than that. Loooong ago I raced bikes, and knew I was never going to be the best because I had too much imagination and did not like pain

I would be passed by a bike with the same tyres and probably the same handling as me, but I did not have the confidence (guts???) to follow it quite so quickly into the bends. Some of the riders immediately struck you as 'nutters' who would not be bothered by a 100mph off, Its just a few weeks in plaster etc. These are the ones who won.

Me, no matter what I am told by others or my own brain, I would not push any harder than my 'nerve' said was as far as it would go. Going past this point is a skill in its self.

Had I known that it would slide a fraction, pull back, then let go I may have stuck it out, but I could not convince myself. Probably a season with one of the even better bikes would have made a difference, so going from a STR may be like for like, or a sharp edge?

[izzy]

Yes it is a skill, but there is more to it than that. Loooong ago I raced bikes, and knew I was never going to be the best because I had too much imagination and did not like pain

I would be passed by a bike with the same tyres and probably the same handling as me, but I did not have the confidence (guts???) to follow it quite so quickly into the bends. Some of the riders immediately struck you as 'nutters' who would not be bothered by a 100mph off, Its just a few weeks in plaster etc. These are the ones who won.

Me, no matter what I am told by others or my own brain, I would not push any harder than my 'nerve' said was as far as it would go. Going past this point is a skill in its self.

Had I known that it would slide a fraction, pull back, then let go I may have stuck it out, but I could not convince myself. Probably a season with one of the even better bikes would have made a difference, so going from a STR may be like for like, or a sharp edge?

i know exactly what you mean! I've only driven on the road in a car but I have to know i can survive, all the time. And bikes, lol, I see the highsides and how high they get flung up in the air before they plummet down onto the tarmac or kerbs and I know I could never go anywhere near that. They're a different species from me. And even in a car, in F1, I'd have to lift going into Eau Rouge.

and off topic but... have you seen the story that Marc Marquez and Lewis might do a bit of a challenge? Both in both vehicles! That'll need insanity-level courage i think.

[NAPI10]

Ocon secures F1 return with Renault for 2020, replacing Hulkenberg....
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... QULFL.html