Record losses in Australia

[Ray]

Funny, 90,000 attended the IndyCar race at Surfer's Paradise and the cost was much smaller (from Motor Sports news):

If the money issues can be sorted out from a Queensland support budget of $11 million (Australian) annually and a five-year contract with sponsor Nikon, the short-term solution is to have another non-points race next year in October, a time the Aussies prefer because it falls after the Rugby and Aussie Football season championships.

Bernie and Max CLAIM their goal is affordable, fast open-wheelers, big crowds, reasonable cost through limited technology, international drivers and international venues. . . . It's already here. It's called IndyCar.

What does IndyCar do different than F1? Is it solely what Bernie charges that drives the cost so high?

[ISLAMATRON]

RAy, congratulations, you have been very thoroughly brainwashed, enjoy the benefits.

Care to elaborate or you just going to insult me instead of factually proving me wrong?

No insult, we've all been brainwashed to some degree, but the arguement is not worth my time... you think your way and I think mine, and actually we agree on some points. Enjoy the race.

[Conceptual]

I'd like to hear Ciro's take on this considering he thought I was exaggerating the fact that the global economy is very close to collapse, and that the little guy (taxpayer) is being screwed by the big banks around the world. This is the beginning of the end for the middle classes of the world. It's enraging that the Aussie taxpayers take the hit, yet they HAVE TO BUY TICKETS TO THE VERY SAME RACE THEY PAID FOR!!!!!!!!!! Socialize the losses, privatize the profits. Kill the middle classes ability to provide for itself through inflation by the Federal Reserve and the International Monetary Fund, and make sure that socializing everything by the government. This is socialism folks, and the bringers of this should be severely punished. And it's never worked.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... game&hl=en

When I first watched this, I was very skeptical...

Now, after the financial crisis, and extrapolating what is going to happen to the middle class, it seems that maybe this isnt that far off...

Anyways, How are these venues losing money? Maybe Max Mosely OR the FOTA can stuff the "reducing costs" ramstick up Bernie's ass to stop extorting millions from these venues and Governments?

Its utterly hypocritical if you think about it...

[Conceptual]

Socialism does not spread the costs, it spreads the benefits, but you have been taught to believe otherwise. What is done with the race is no different than the oil companies in America, as a citizen you own the oil that comes from underneath the ground, yet you still pay for it at the pump, plus taxes on it.

Okay, if Socialism spreads the benefits rather than the costs, where do the funds come from? The government? Nope. It comes from the citizen in the form of, gasp!, taxes. Social Security tax. Medicare tax. Social Security is a failure, I'm paying for it but I'm never going to see the 'benefits' of it. My grandfather didn't see the 'benefits' they told him he was going to recieve.

I do not own the oil underneath the ground. Where did you come up with that idea? Whoever purchases the land and spends their money to drill for it owns it. Whoever pays for the land covered in timber owns it and can log it for their benefit. That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Capitalism, makes it that the land the oil companies drill on is sold to them very cheaply by their government pawns, then they pay minimal royalties & taxes to the government.

No, government causes this. You said it yourself. The government writes laws that allows them to buy the land cheaper than the free market (capitalism) would sell it to them. How much more proof do you need than that? Capitalism isn't the problem, it's the government altering the price of the land compared to it's market value that causes it. It's not that hard to see.

You obviously dont understand that banks dont work.

I do in fact know how banks work. The way the governments and the people who line the politicians pockets have engineered a system that works to devastating effect. The current system we have goes all the way back to the 16th century. You need to read The Creature from Jekyll Island. If you do ever read take the opportunity to read it it will blow you away.

Capitalism has everything to do with very few people making massive amounts of money off the backs of the poorer people. Capitalism is not dead, but dies a little more every time there is a "market correction" which in actuality is the true effect of inflation because they are trading things that don't exist for things that do. The governments are merely in self preservation mode.

Capitalism has absolutely nothing to do with the current situation. With government creating laws that benefit the coporations we have the problems of today. They have allowed banks to create money, passed laws that give them the right to do so, yet the average citizen will go to jail for a long time if they do the same exact thing. Capitalism in it's very basic and true for is businesses competing, without government regulation or interference, for people to come buy their products. If they make good products they succeed, if not they fail. What we have here is not capitalism. Success and failure are part of capitalism, by not allowing, or funding these companies to prevent them from failing is NOT capitalism.

You're right about the governments being in self preservation mode to a point. When the collapse of the economies happen, the people who are being taxed and robbed by the banks and governments are the ones that will scrape the barrel. This is caused by inflation, government handouts to corporations, laws that stifle competition, and general meddling with the economy. A government intervening in anything is almost always a bad idea when it come to the markets. Every single action they've taken in this country has made it worse, not better. And we are the ones financing it through inflation caused by the Federal Reserve banks.

I surely hope that the Australia race stay on the calendar, I really like the country. I'd give anything to go back and see it again. The people are the most friendly I've ever met anywhere in the world. It's a shame that Bernie is charging so much for a race, but then again they don't have to pay it. I could see it working if they turned a small profit, but losing 40 million is way too steep.

www.campaignforliberty.com

From your post, it looks like you are already a regular visitor!

[Conceptual]

RAy, congratulations, you have been very thoroughly brainwashed, enjoy the benefits.

Dude,

You are an idiot. If you were to actually do some reading, you would find 98% of his statements are true. I disagree on a bit, but only in somantics. I see the majority of the laws on the State level being bought by INSURANCE companies to help their bottom line.

THe best thing that our govt could do is force ALL insurance companies to become non-profit organizations. That would stop about 95% of the lobbying action in our State capitals, and stop the raping of our working class citizens...

[mike]

australia may not be seen as a rich country
but this is a country that is high on taxes and im very happy to see the money i paid to a bunch of people to held a GP in melbourne
oil may not be our main natural resource, but we have so many other stuff under the ground that can feed this county for the next 100 years, so why do i even bother with 40 mil, that puts melbourne on the world map for tourist all over the world, and the main reason that the GP is staying is because, people believe that the tourist dollars created is alot more than 40 mil. Australian government has never been an overly efficient government, because we do have so much resources.

what im trying to say is for australia 40mil for a GP is worth it, and it does bring more benefit than lost

[mr moda]

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=657566

40 mil $ is serious money. this is far more than the single digit loss figures of European GPs. I'm not up to date on the exchange rate of the AUS$ vs the € but the loss must be a serious double digit figure in €. I wonder how this can be justified to the tax payer. I'm sure we could never get it through in Germany. Hockenheim failed by 4 or 5 mil €. they may never hold a GP again. how much money must an everage race goer spend that the tax payer breaks even? I have no idea what the sales tax is but it will surely be less than the 19% we pay in Germany.

It never said that the GP LOST 40 million. The Victorian Govt injected 40 million to fund the GP. You also fail to take into account the 35 million in sales revenue. The event itself has suffered in previous years with the absence of the V8 support race and general entertainment lacking for the non F1 fanatic. This year was up on expectations due to the retooling of the event which needed extra funding to get it back on track.

[donskar]

Ray wrote:

What does IndyCar do different than F1? Is it solely what Bernie charges that drives the cost so high?

Basic cars are far less expensive. fFr less minute development throughout the year (most teams [none?] do not have a wind tunnel). Drivers are good, but not "great" so salaries are lower.

Bernie is not solely to blame, but as I understand the situation, the fees he charges promoters make it unlikely or impossible to make a profit -- government suopport is becoming a necessity. Certainly, Bernie's blind greed is killing the sport - IMHO, of course!

[Ray]

Ray wrote:

What does IndyCar do different than F1? Is it solely what Bernie charges that drives the cost so high?

Basic cars are far less expensive. fFr less minute development throughout the year (most teams [none?] do not have a wind tunnel). Drivers are good, but not "great" so salaries are lower.

Bernie is not solely to blame, but as I understand the situation, the fees he charges promoters make it unlikely or impossible to make a profit -- government suopport is becoming a necessity. Certainly, Bernie's blind greed is killing the sport - IMHO, of course!

Thanks for that donskar, what I meant was event costs. I know one make of engine and chassis will lower costs. I was curious what drives the cost of having a race is so high. I can't believe that tax money is being spent on hosting a race that taxpayers have to buy tickets to attend. Seem to me that if the local government uses tax money to pay for the event, then the taxpayers should get free tickets. How much is Bernies going rate anyway? I thought Tony George said it cost Indy so much to pay his fees that he couldn't make a profit and he was losing money, causing him to not renew a deal with Bernie. It's a shame if that's true.

[WhiteBlue]

It never said that the GP LOST 40 million. The Victorian Govt injected 40 million to fund the GP. You also fail to take into account the 35 million in sales revenue. The event itself has suffered in previous years with the absence of the V8 support race and general entertainment lacking for the non F1 fanatic. This year was up on expectations due to the retooling of the event which needed extra funding to get it back on track.

Welcome Mr. Moda

I'm afraid you are wrong. The source I quoted said:

The 2008 Formula One Grand Prix in Melbourne suffered a record $40 million loss, new figures reveal....

The report obviously focusses on the bottom line and mentions other aspects like growth of revenue but also serious lack of sponsorship (Foster comes to mind) as underlying causes. There is no mentioning of retooling. I am not aware what you mean by retooling. All F1 venues have to meet certain rising costs including Bernies fees and demands for modern facilities. And of cause developing safety requirements have to be met by tracks. That is nothing unusual in the competitive world of GP venues. It remains an alarming deficit and a bad precedent of subsidies by tax payers money.

The going rate to Bernie for future GPs seems to be 30-40 mil $ unless you have traditional privledges like the British GP (which seems to be paying rather less at 20 mil).

[Chaparral]

Gordon (sorry WB) I think you will find ninemsn (a blog page) isnt a credible source its part of the Nine Network one of three commercial free to air TV networks here and the same sensationalism or never let the truth get in front of a good story applies - that 'journalistic' article and I use that term loosely was hobbled together from a submission submitted by 'Save Albert Park' a greenie organisation in the Victorian parliament. The last figures I saw on the GP was an overall cost to the state of $67 mill v a return from the event of $63 mil combined income so a loss of $4 mil on paper - thats not taking into account what comes out of tourism over the next 12 month period which no one can give you but its in the tens of millions. The fee paid to Ecclestone is in the vicinity of $25 mil that we know not $30-40 mil. It obviously makes sense for the Victorian government to extend the deal as it did the MotoGP deal which brings in around 60% of the income the F1 GP attracts to the state - so a good deal overall.

BTW someone was asking about the Nicon 300 Indycar event - it attracts pretty much the same number through the gates over the weekend (300,000 + people) at a cost to the Queensland government of $11 mil per year - a better bang for your buck thats for sure but its also a very different event - Indy is very much a week long party whereas the GP in Melbourne is a bit more serious affair - snobs !!

[Ciro Pabón]

I have already commented along Chaparral lines based on documents by the Victoria State Comptroller. I don't know where I posted that.

I find hard to believe they lost 40 million this year. The last report available, by the Economic and Finance Comittee of the State of Victoria, says they have been injecting around U$ 4 millions per year.

Anyway, is not how much you invest, is how large is the return, as any banker would say. The Victoria government, manager of the Australian GP, estimate a direct, immediate increase in tax revenue of U$ 8 millions because of the GP, so they think they're doing fine. Of course, they're politicians, so they are probably lying through their teeth, but that's what they say:

"In seven years of staging the event the operations of the Grand Prix Board have only resulted in a financial profit in one of those years being $41,000 in 1988. During this time Government financial assistance both Federal and State totals $24.634 million... Based on studies available it is evident that the Grand Prix does produce substantial benefits for South Australia even when weighed against the operating losses sustained by the Board since 1985." Inquiry into the Public Accountability of the Australian Formula One Grand Prix Board, 2005

We all know that every year, since 1998, a small group of land owners around Albert Park makes complains about the GP. Glad to see that this year wasn't the exception. They haven't raised the "excessive noise" issue this year, maybe they're losing some of their stamina...

On the other hand, we're happy to know that Islamatron hasn't been brainwashed, unlike most of us. If only we could brainwash him to keep to himself personal opinions about other members... Inshallah!

I can swear that at the moderators lounge, we're relieved about him not having time to answer Ray's post.

Finally, I would like to remind the forum that IMHO money is like manure: if you put it all in one place, it smells bad. If you spread it around, it's called fertilizer. That's what the Government of Victoria is trying to do with racing sports and taxes. Heaven bless them and may all the governments on earth be that wise.

[Belatti]

RAy, congratulations, you have been very thoroughly brainwashed, enjoy the benefits.

Dude,

You are an idiot.

Like ISLAMATRON said, we all have been brainwashed a lil bit. This is a global forum and we have beed educated by diferent governments. For example, I studied in Geography that Falkland Islands are Argentinian. By Law, here all maps name them as "Malvinas (Arg.)". Go and try to speak some spanish out there
Also, if you see any map printed in Chile you can see that Usuahia state belongs to Chile instead to Argentina. This happens all arround the globe, not only with geopraphy, but with political, religious and moral ideas. The important thing we must finally learn is that we all are humans and have the same home.

Let me quote a song from my favourite band (I like to think its the nowadays Pink Floyd ) tool:

Angels on the sideline,
Puzzled and amused.
Why did Father give these humans free will?
Now they're all confused.

Don't these talking monkeys know that
Eden has enough to go around?
Plenty in this holy garden, silly monkeys,
Where there's one you're bound to divide it.
Right in two.

Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.
Father blessed them all with reason.
And this is what they choose.
And this is what they choose...

Monkey killing monkey killing monkey
Over pieces of the ground.
Silly monkeys give them thumbs,
They forge a blade,
And where there's one
they're bound to divide it,
Right in two.

Monkey killing monkey killing monkey.
Over pieces of the ground.
Silly monkeys give them thumbs.
They make a club.
And beat their brother, down.
How they survive so misguided is a mystery.

Repugnant is a creature who would squander
the ability to lift an eye to heaven,
conscious of his fleeting time here.

Fight over the clouds, over earth, over canyon
They fight for our love, for our blood, over heaven,
Fight over love, over sun,
over nothing, they fight till they die,
and for what? For their lives ending.

Angels on the sideline again.
Benched along with patience and reason.
Angels on the sideline again
Wondering when this tug of war will end.

RIGHT IN TWO!
Right in two...

NOTE: the author actually had been in the US army and in the song calls ourselves monkeys, although maybe Conceptual will like it, this is only art but never never meant to offend anyone calling it IDIOT

Also I think there is a general confusion regarding capitalism vs socialism. Both work and are great... IN THEORY. The truth is the system (any system) is a reflex of the people that implement it. Neither socialism nor capitalism will work as we are today. We would have to turn into Nietzsche´s superman to make any of them work

[Conceptual]

RAy, congratulations, you have been very thoroughly brainwashed, enjoy the benefits.

Dude,

You are an idiot.

Like ISLAMATRON said, we all have been brainwashed a lil bit. This is a global forum and we have beed educated by diferent governments. For example, I studied in Geography that Falkland Islands are Argentinian. By Law, here all maps name them as "Malvinas (Arg.)". Go and try to speak some spanish out there
Also, if you see any map printed in Chile you can see that Usuahia state belongs to Chile instead to Argentina. This happens all arround the globe, not only with geopraphy, but with political, religious and moral ideas. The important thing we must finally learn is that we all are humans and have the same home.

Let me quote a song from my favourite band (I like to think its the nowadays Pink Floyd ) tool:

Angels on the sideline,
Puzzled and amused.
Why did Father give these humans free will?
Now they're all confused.

Don't these talking monkeys know that
Eden has enough to go around?
Plenty in this holy garden, silly monkeys,
Where there's one you're bound to divide it.
Right in two.

Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.
Father blessed them all with reason.
And this is what they choose.
And this is what they choose...

Monkey killing monkey killing monkey
Over pieces of the ground.
Silly monkeys give them thumbs,
They forge a blade,
And where there's one
they're bound to divide it,
Right in two.

Monkey killing monkey killing monkey.
Over pieces of the ground.
Silly monkeys give them thumbs.
They make a club.
And beat their brother, down.
How they survive so misguided is a mystery.

Repugnant is a creature who would squander
the ability to lift an eye to heaven,
conscious of his fleeting time here.

Fight over the clouds, over earth, over canyon
They fight for our love, for our blood, over heaven,
Fight over love, over sun,
over nothing, they fight till they die,
and for what? For their lives ending.

Angels on the sideline again.
Benched along with patience and reason.
Angels on the sideline again
Wondering when this tug of war will end.

RIGHT IN TWO!
Right in two...

NOTE: the author actually had been in the US army and in the song calls ourselves monkeys, although maybe Conceptual will like it, this is only art but never never meant to offend anyone calling it IDIOT

Also I think there is a general confusion regarding capitalism vs socialism. Both work and are great... IN THEORY. The truth is the system (any system) is a reflex of the people that implement it. Neither socialism nor capitalism will work as we are today. We would have to turn into Nietzsche´s superman to make any of them work

I have actually seen Tool live twice. Great shows both times.

[Belatti]

I have actually seen Tool live twice. Great shows both times.

Did you learn something from them?