What can F1 learn from Nascar?

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Jersey Tom
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What can F1 learn from Nascar?

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Scoff as you may at Nascar, as I did before I really paid much attention to it, but it does have some stuff going for it.

The racing is very close, lead changes frequently among the top runners, lot of potential position shuffling on pit road, and the cars can take a beating. They are aero-sensitive, but they can take a knock or so and still be competitive.

It's rare that someone starts up front and runs away with the race.. at which point its "Driver (or team) X... followed a few seconds by everyone else."

In the interest of "fun racing" and something enjoyable to watch, is there anything F1 can take from Nascar? Or Nascar from F1?
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

jumaal
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Re: What can F1 learn from Nascar?

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NASCAR maybe competetive but what I do not like about that racing is the constant circling of the cars in an oval racetrack. I have rarely seen any twisty tracks. The cars do not appear to be going at high speeds.

Another thing is that there are way too many cars and its hard to find a favorite. Ofcourse the cars look big, fat and not-so-sexy.
Thanks,

Jumaal

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guy_smiley
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Re: What can F1 learn from Nascar?

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cant really answer your question but i want to say this...

what i do like about nascar is that you dont know who is going to win the race until the last lap or last corner.

in f1 you know who is going to win after after the first pit stop some 15 or 20 laps in.

(i leave out engine failures, crashes, mechanical problems etc. because those are common to both of these...)

anyway, f1 is f1 and nascar is nascar, know what i mean?
Smiles all 'round!

Belatti
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Re: What can F1 learn from Nascar?

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jumaal wrote:NASCAR maybe competetive but what I do not like about that racing is the constant circling of the cars in an oval racetrack. I have rarely seen any twisty tracks. The cars do not appear to be going at high speeds.

Another thing is that there are way too many cars and its hard to find a favorite. Of course the cars look big, fat and not-so-sexy.
I second jumaal

American cars where beautiful until the 70´s (some of them) and since then they are the most horrible cars on the planet. Any nice looking American car is a remake, like the new Camaro, wich is a beautiful beast. NASCAR cars seem boxes with wheels.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

modbaraban
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Re: What can F1 learn from Nascar?

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I keep wondering why stock car racing is about identical soapboxes with manufacturer-ish stuff painted on them (grill, lights etc) :wtf: Shouldn't they be just stock cars (i.e. unmodified road cars)? The likes of modern Mustang vs Camaro vs Challenger would be a waaaaay better looking grid.

What can F1 learn from Nascar? ...mistakes to avoid :wink:

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guy_smiley
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Re: What can F1 learn from Nascar?

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modbaraban wrote:I The likes of modern Mustang vs Camaro vs Challenger would be a waaaaay better looking grid.
yeah thatd be awesome. that's how nascar used to be in the old days....sorry for the Gigantor pic! :D
Image
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The FOZ
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Re: What can F1 learn from Nascar?

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To answer the question posed in the title:

Little, if anything.

NASCAR succeeds by being, literally, the lowest common denominator. The simplest, lowest tech, least sophisticated, most undeveloped racing possible.

The cars are carborated. They even used leaded fuel up until last season! They race on an oval. No telementrics are allowed during racing. The cars are far too tightly constrained by specification.

And I'm going to catch a lot of heat for this, but I make no apologies, I see the fans of NASCAR liking it for the reasons mentioned above. It is an easy sport to watch and comprehend, and for a fan, does not require you to shift your brain beyond first gear.

Formula one is far more cerebral, more complex, and while the average person can certainly enjoy it - only when I began to peel back the onion did I really start to develop a passion for F1, to the point of waking up at 6:30 in the mornings to watch the races - all the stuff going on inside the monocoque is fascinating to me. The level of engineering going on in F1 is simply beyond the reach of most people to relate to, and is ultimately it's downfall. Most people cannot relate to F1, and don't enjoy it as much as something like NASCAR, which at least looks similar to road cars.

But what would it take to turn Formula 1 into NASCAR? F1 lacks passing; NASCAR has much more. But look at the track configuration - NASCAR tracks are simple and wide. F1 tracks are not. What Max and Bernie are trying to do - increase the passing, but not by turning the tracks into an oval - is very difficult.

It would take some damned good commntators to package and present what's going on to the NASCAR crowd in a way they would enjoy.

It's apples and oranges. Not necessarily bad - well, yeah, actually I think it's bad, the lowest common denominator usually is - but it's just so fundamentally different that very little of what NASCAR has done and accomplished even translates into something F1 can use to their own benefit.

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Ray
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Re: What can F1 learn from Nascar?

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I can agree with FOZ. Don't do spec cars. I was a really big NASCAR fan up until two or three years ago. I hate the new car. I hate they all look the same. And yes, the sport is easier to understand to the viewer because it is so simple. But the same could be said for basketball, football, soccer (or football to the rest of the world :D ), and many other stick and ball sports. Though if you do delve a little deeper what the drivers and crews manage to wring out of the cars is amazing. Making that amount of power with a basic engine design that is decades old and make that power for hours on end at over 9000 rpm is pretty significant Passing is very common is NASCAR, mainly because the cars have one shape, not wings and things hanging off of them and in turn don't have the aero problems F1 cars do. Plus the tracks are all ovals and those are easier to pass on than a road course because there is more than one line to take. I think F1 could take a page from NASCAR is terms of fans treatment. At ANY racetrack you can literally walk up to any driver and talk to them and get an autograph. At any time, barring working on the car or engaged in conversation obviously. The F1 circus could make the drivers a little more accessable I think.

The FOZ
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Re: What can F1 learn from Nascar?

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I've gotta agree with you on fan accessibility, Ray. It just doesn't make sense that Bernie is pulling the plug on Montreal, the last N.A. race, which is a market where they could make tons of new fans, IF they put the effort into it. But maybe they've just said "screw it, NASCAR's got that territory"

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Ray
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Re: What can F1 learn from Nascar?

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I myself was about 9 or 10 I think and went to Talladega with my dad and was able to walk right up to Dale Earnhardt Senior and talk to him without any questions asked or anybody wanting to know what I wanted. It was the most significant thing that I've ever experienced in racing. To be able to walk up to a legend like him at 9 years old and engage in conversation was absolutely amazing.

Jersey Tom
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Re: What can F1 learn from Nascar?

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The FOZ wrote:To answer the question posed in the title:

Little, if anything.

NASCAR succeeds by being, literally, the lowest common denominator. The simplest, lowest tech, least sophisticated, most undeveloped racing possible.

The cars are carborated. They even used leaded fuel up until last season! They race on an oval. No telementrics are allowed during racing. The cars are far too tightly constrained by specification.

And I'm going to catch a lot of heat for this, but I make no apologies, I see the fans of NASCAR liking it for the reasons mentioned above. It is an easy sport to watch and comprehend, and for a fan, does not require you to shift your brain beyond first gear.

Formula one is far more cerebral, more complex, and while the average person can certainly enjoy it - only when I began to peel back the onion did I really start to develop a passion for F1, to the point of waking up at 6:30 in the mornings to watch the races - all the stuff going on inside the monocoque is fascinating to me. The level of engineering going on in F1 is simply beyond the reach of most people to relate to, and is ultimately it's downfall. Most people cannot relate to F1, and don't enjoy it as much as something like NASCAR, which at least looks similar to road cars.

But what would it take to turn Formula 1 into NASCAR? F1 lacks passing; NASCAR has much more. But look at the track configuration - NASCAR tracks are simple and wide. F1 tracks are not. What Max and Bernie are trying to do - increase the passing, but not by turning the tracks into an oval - is very difficult.

It would take some damned good commntators to package and present what's going on to the NASCAR crowd in a way they would enjoy.

It's apples and oranges. Not necessarily bad - well, yeah, actually I think it's bad, the lowest common denominator usually is - but it's just so fundamentally different that very little of what NASCAR has done and accomplished even translates into something F1 can use to their own benefit.
Partially true, but a lot of false items. I used to think similarly, but Nascar in the 2000s is very technically developed racing. At least in the successful teams. Some of the suspension, engine, and aerodynamic development rivals F1. Believe me on that. The "box" they have to work in is very small and much different, but they can still do a lot inside that box. And even with a spec body template and very very tight aero rules, there is still significant aero study and development.. and like F1 the cars handle significantly more poorly in the wake of traffic. The chassis likewise are significantly different from track to track and team from team. The announcing plays this down heavily though.

Beyond that, the tracks are wide and the "events" (entry.. mid corner.. exit) are widely spaced out which makes for better overtaking opportunities, but they are surprisingly not simple. That's right, a banked oval track is decidedly not simple. Whereas with a road or street course there's a rapid succession of events you have to time and string together perfectly, an oval is still technical. You have to be perfect on your marks, and with variable banking through the corners and different grip levels high and low the "standard" racing line does not always apply. Plus, there is really zero runoff room and in that respect it's almost like a street course. You can't just go off into runoff area. It's either the wall, or spinning through the infield.

There is a reason why otherwise stellar open wheel drivers often have a lot of difficulty on ovals, and it isn't just equipment. Despite how "simple" the tracks seem.. take a talented oval racer and a talented road racer and put them in IDENTICAL equpiment on a track. The oval racer will smoke the road racer. It's still technical but in a much different way.

Believe me, I started as a big sportscar and openwheeler fan and would have laughed at the mention of Nascar. I realize now that there is a lot more to it. Regardless, Nascar has a formula for interesting racing. Whereas in F1 often you'll get a Ferrari or Mclaren front row and barring stupid driving mistakes and crashes a driver from one of those team is likely to win... even with clean racing there is no such precedent in Nascar. A guy can be leading 3/4 of the race and driving great and for one reason or another, anyone in the field can take the win.

I bet a lot of it is in the amount of cautions/yellows in Nascar, "free" passes for the first lapped car, the pitting sequencing, and how long the races are with how the track evolves.

Think about it. There's more to it than one would think from casual observation.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: What can F1 learn from Nascar?

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Little if anything? Hrumph. Yeah, sure, you shouldn't try to learn something from your main competitor, the one that has stolen from you the world's largest market for sport racing. And some people wonder why US is in free fall... Remember: the border between stupidity and retardation in a post is a fine line you have to walk. ;)

I don't deny that you can learn the good and the bad (and the ugly) when watching other people for too long, but if I've been trained toward something in my professional life is to learn from others. So, here you have my short version of "walking the line" (I hope this post to be only moderately stupid, instead of amazingly retarded) :

Top ten things (and one more!) F1 can learn from NASCAR:

10. Do not allow it to become a family bussiness: the issue with the France family is ridiculous. The "family based" drivers are usually a big flop. Sometimes it's like watching Smokey and the Bandit: the deputy is always the nephew of the Police Commisioner. As Bill France says, NASCAR produces "opportunities for family members". Puaj, allow me to throw up. Done. Let's continue: Slavica Ecclestone is the greatest danger to the continuity of F1 and I mean it. Remember, the old guy is becoming older by the minute.

9. Do not become a regional based franchise. FOM has barely understood it, but even with those feeble attempts, european fans are upset about it. From roughly 10 races in France, Germany and England, F1 has spent 50 years before moving to Asia. And that's only to Asia and only if by "Asia" you mean the ex-british colonies, oil producing countries included. Actually, in my not very humble opinion (IMNVHO) there is NOT a world based racing series on this Earth. Formula One still is a "developed world thing", strictly associated with the euro. Keep reading, at least the next paragraph, if you wish to know where the problem comes from:

8. Create feeder series and take them seriously, instead of treating them as a last minute thought. I don't know when these people is going to understand the concept of "feeder series" that FIFA (not FIA, but FIFA) handles so well. A1GP is a sorry attempt to play the "nationality" thing. The key concept here is "ascend and descend series". The idea of showing the ascending series on Saturday TV is a good one. You know, IMNVHO, the ascend/descend thing should include the TEAMS. Yes, my friends, if I were the honcho in charge, top team in F3 shall move to F1 and last F1 team should be demoted to F3. Same goes for drivers. That should move things a bit.

7. Use more cameras and a decent TV director: blimps, helicopters, sidetrack cameras, NASCAR has them even into the soup. F1 cameras are worried about showing the liveries of the top racing teams and little more. I'm bored to death with just one point of view atop the driver for on-board cameras, including the cute (taken from SEGA or COLECO, I'd say) G-forces clock and the "manga" style RPM indicator. I've never seen, in camera, a Formula One car passing by and shaking the ground, if you know what I mean. That's the most played camera take in NASCAR: I call it "the rumble". NASCAR uses the sound of cars! When have you heard the sound of a Formula One car from the side of the track? The concept of repeating an overtaking has not entered into the hard cranium of F1 TV directors: cameras stay with the two top guys even if they're alone in the track. Camera director allows you to watch five or six of the twenty-something overtakes that happen in a race. Who are these people? I would hire a top movie director to manage the TV thing, and I would make a deal including a couple of movies about F1! Not for the big screen, but for Discovery or NatGeo, you know what I mean: NatGeo is able to produce a ten chapter series about excavators, for heaven's sake! Sadly, you are NOT allowed to vote for me to become FIA president.

6. Include a couple of drivers that actually have balls. Most F1 drivers are skimpy little things that could be blown away by the wind, and I'm not talking about their personality: that is even flimsier. JPM, where are you? Mmmmm... in NASCAR. Why? You know why: most F1 drivers have the attitude of a ballet dancer and the same "diva-ish" character. You have to suspect if half of the grid is gay. I'm not asking for NASCAR-type drivers, those guys that make you wonder if they're going to fart on camera, but you know what I mean: drivers with an attitude shouldn't be automatically penalized by "the system".

5. Open the radio. NASCAR allows team to negotiate. On public radio. Enough said, you know how radio is treated by F1 teams: like the british communications during WWII: "walls have ears".

4. Do not include stupid guys as commentators. Yes, I've seen James Allen, but you should hear that guy Darrell Walltrip saying "boogity, boogity, boogity" every weekend. I would hire a top team of stars to handle the english transmission, guys so good that local cable stations would rely on them, instead of hiring a couple of local, burnt ex-drivers and an out-of-work anchor from the evening news.

3. Do not interrupt the transmission every five minutes. Well, you know how the americans handle the sports: even the pit thing is timed to handle the adverts. Do not follow that path.

2. Eternal races. My wife asks me during NASCAR transmissions just this: "how much"? I only answer "three hundred and twenty eight". We understand each other: I know and she knows that we're talking about how many laps to the end. I don't know where NASCAR got the idea of four hour races, but this place should be nuked.

1. Be proud of your history. Every NASCAR race is a lesson in history. What else could I add?

0. High definition TV. When are those people going to awake to the XXIth century?

Man, is fun to write here. Sad I was carried away and nobody will read it because this post is way too damn long.
Ciro

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freedom_honda
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Re: What can F1 learn from Nascar?

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6. Include a couple of drivers that actually have balls. Most F1 drivers are skimpy little things that could be blown away by the wind, and I'm not talking about their personality: that is even flimsier. JPM, where are you? Mmmmm... in NASCAR. Why? You know why: most F1 drivers have the attitude of a ballet dancer and the same "diva-ish" character. You have to suspect if half of the grid is gay. I'm not asking for NASCAR-type drivers, those guys that make you wonder if they're going to fart on camera, but you know what I mean: drivers with an attitude shouldn't be automatically penalized by "the system".


BRING BACK SATO!! :lol:

donskar
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Re: What can F1 learn from Nascar?

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Excellent post, jersey tom.

One thing F1 could learn - develop a fan base not made up so heavily of ignorant snobs. It's called xenophobia guys - fear and hatred of something different, that you do not understand.

NASCAR does NOT run exclusively on superspeedways. There are MANY small, tight ovals -- "bull rings" in NASCAR lingo. And - yes - they do run on some road courses.

Not "technical"? More ignorance showing through. Toyota is rolling out a technology base in the US to develop engines, chassis, and aero for NASCAR.

A "spec" series? Yes, the bodies are constrained - the direction F1 is going. But F1 is heading toward a result that will make F1 more "spec" than NASCAR.

PS: I dislike NASCAR. I love F1. I hate ignorance and conceit.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

Belatti
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Re: What can F1 learn from Nascar?

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Ciro, you know we were going to read it all

Point number 6, lol, hell yeah!

Poin number 8, it has been arround F1 4 or 5 years ago. The idea sucks. The main problem has been the budget difference between a F1 team and the rest. Thats why these rancid old men wants a USD 100mi budget per team per year.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna