What can F1 learn from Nascar?

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, thanks, Belatti. I conclude you can digest anything...

Why does the idea suck?

The ones that would be descending are Sutil, Fisichella and Force India. It seems fair to me to replace them with Nico Hulkenberg, Edoardo Motara and ART Grand Prix, if you know who I am talking about.

Actually, I wonder how many people in this forum knows who I am talking about: please raise your hands. No one? Ah, yes, but I see few hands! On the sarcastic side, it would be a great opportunity for Force India (sorry, sorry, just a joke... but a good one, isn't it?).

Besides, in many countries, you need two different cable operators to watch F1 and F3. Where is the logic in that?

IMNVHO, the system has made wonders to NASCAR teams and drivers coming from the "minor league" in US. Yes, I know NASCAR does not have a formal ascend/descend system, but they share TV time. Why it wouldn't work for F1?

How many of you have watched the 2008 F3 championship, compared with how many north americans have watched the Nationwide series?

Finally, I agree with donskar, as usual: JTom made a very good post. I would remark that the knowledge of american fans is excellent, much better than the one I've seen at the F1 races I've attended.

[Belatti]

Well, thanks, Belatti. I conclude you can digest anything...

Why does the idea suck?

OK, the idea may not suck 100% and its true that F3, GP2 or any other racing series you want doesnt have the coverage they deserve, doesnt share cable operators, etc.

But I see a lot of problems: how can a F1 team cope to maintain sponsors descending all that level? How can they maintain drivers? How would a F3 team be sustainable having to build a F1 chasis in 3 month and with what sponsors? With what wind tunnel? Highest level team of engineers? Nascar and its little brothers, well, they are not so little, they use basically the same spec car.

F1 is very different to any other racing serie. If you wish that to happen, there should be basically 25 F1 teams and "F1B" should be given a lot of importance, press, coverage, etc. Of course always watching out F1B doesnt make F1 look bad.

Just imagine this scenario: year 2004, Schumacher beating everyone in an F1 full of dull races, winnig 10 out of 17 races. Hamilton, Kubica and Vettel fighting in a mega exiting sparkling F1B championship. What would people watch?

You Ciro may know that here in Argentina we have TC Pist and TC Mouras as TC feeder series. If you wanna try TC you MUST win 2 races in a feeder serie, at least. It works, both series are nice to watch, they share many things and basically they are the same type of cars, but if you are last in TC or 1st in a feeder you are not obliged to move.

[donskar]

Ciro asked for hands up on:

Nico Hulkenberg, Edoardo Motara and ART Grand Prix

Put me down for 2 out of 3 (Edoardo Motara??)

Hulkenberg seems one wad of sponsor $ away from an F1 ride. ART has an outside chance at being a near-future F1 entrant. (I hate the idea of a "standard" or "spec" engine, but it would be great to have BOTH a modern equivalent of the old Cosworth DFV AND the ability of teams to build their own engines. And I mean DESIGN and build - not build a clone to "standard" specs. With a "modern DFV" we could easily see 3 or 4 more F1 teams.)

[DaveKillens]

Hmm, I can name a few good examples of what was done first in NASCAR, then copied in F1 and other motorsports. Pitting to change tires and gas. NASCAR was doing it in the 60's, and proving it was a feasable tactic. Night races under lights. Same again, NASCAR has been holding night races for many, many years. And successfully. So although NASCAR may appear as a lesser series, it actually leads the way in many areas.
And no, NASCAR fans do not drag their knuckles and communicate in monosyllabic grunts. Please give them more credit than that. Not that some aren't stupid, but then again I've seem F1 fans who are so dumb they think the stock market has a fence around it.
But NASCAR appeals to a completely different kind of audience than F1, they sell a completely different product, of heroes in their steel chariots, bright lights, cool colors, ripping noise, and the feelgood experience of going to a local fair, all at one racetrack. NASCAR is different to various types of people. For some, it's the unrelenting competition, for others it's the bright lights, pretty colors, and rugged drivers. For others, it's the comfort sport they require since the post 2001 911 change in the world. And for others, like myself, it's the racing.
What can F1 learn? How about driver promotion, where the drivers bask in a much more open exposure to the fans. And how about the crew chiefs and their having to make many, multiple decisions each and every week? I have seen too many cock-ups in F1 pits to recognize a real weakness there. If I was a team principal, like Ron Dennis, I'd hire a NASCAR crew chief to manage the entire pitting sequence, race strategy, and related items.

[Ciro Pabón]

Ciro asked for hands up on:

Nico Hulkenberg, Edoardo Motara and ART Grand Prix

Put me down for 2 out of 3 (Edoardo Motara??)

They are the first and second drivers and first team in Formula 3 Euro series this year.

Sorry, btw, I made a typo, it's Mortara. Swiss driver, races as italian (I think he has double nationality, I'm not sure). A hell of a driver, drives for Volkswagen, had a terrible weekend at Zaandvort, if he hadn't he probably would have beaten Hulkenberg to the championship. He's huge for a Formula driver (I think he has to be taller than 1.8 meters). He won the rookie title last year. A great person in every interview.

Frankly, if Formula One tought about a "normal ladder", there won't be such huge differences between F1 and F3 and, at least, some TV time during F1 transmissions for F3. I think I'm fortunate to have F3 on my cable TV.

I cannot avoid to think of Champcar performance/cost ratio reading Belatti's post. If there is an american series that can teach something else to F1 (besides NASCAR) is defunct Champcar.

[donskar]

davekillens wrote:

Pitting to change tires and gas. NASCAR was doing it in the 60's, and proving it was a feasable tactic.

=D>

And F1 might be better off using those archaic gas cans for refueling rather than the nightmarish system currently afflicting F1 pit stops. Seriously.

Something else F1 might learn - I understand average human beings can afford tickets to NASCAR races without taking out a second mortgage. I have never attended a NASCAR race, but I have a couple distant relatives who travel thousands of miles per year attending multiple NASCAR events. I'd guess their yearly income is in the $55,000 - $65,000 range.

NASCAR has not raised barriers between its races (or its drivers) and the general public. F1 has. The barriers - and their lack - were the result of planning, not accident. This is the way Bernie and Max want it. Their choice, and it works for them, but not for me.

[donskar]

Ciro Pabon wrote:

Frankly, if Formula One tought about a "normal ladder", there won't be such huge differences between F1 and F3 and, at least, some TV time during F1 transmissions for F3. I think I'm fortunate to have F3 on my cable TV.

Jurassic alert: I'm about to go shuffling of into the distant past . . .

I remember a time five children ago when I got Autosport AIRMAILED to me in the US. In those days there was a (semingly) logical progression - 1-liter F3; 2-liter F2; 3-liter F1. And to make the "ladder" even more effective for young drivers, many regular F1 pilots competed in the lower formulae. Young drivers could take progressive steps in terms of power and sped all while competing against the best.

[Belatti]

I cannot avoid to think of Champcar performance/cost ratio reading Belatti's post. If there is an american series that can teach something else to F1 (besides NASCAR) is defunct Champcar.

True. But how can it be done without a spec (God, how much I hate that word ) car?

Cosworth? Anyone? Have you all checked my post in this thread?
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6076&hilit=cosworth